Play a Hand With the Masters #3 Flop B

[CardSharpCook]

I hear a lot of players on this forum (and on poker tables across America) talk about the size of an opponent's bet, and then start to imagine all sorts of reasons for it. "he bet so big becuase it is a COMPLETE bluff." "The min-raise can ONLY mean AA/KK." "That was just a min-raise. He MUST be weak." The truth is that villians come from a variety of backgrounds and poker traditions and the thinking they put into the hand has convinced them that the optimal raise is X. That you would raise to Y if you had their hand, Z if you had something stronger, and X only on a bluff or with the nuts...really doesn't matter to the villian. Don't put too much weight on an opponent's raise/bet amounts until you see them put in several raises of the same size with the same caliber hand. Hell, when I first starting playing, every single one of my bets/raises were exactly the same size (unless I went all-in). Do you have any reason to believe that villian isn't simply making his standard raise? Learn the villian. Don't think that all villians think like you, think alike, or even think at all.

[Exitonly]

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Hell, when I first starting playing, every single one of my bets/raises were exactly the same size

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thats cause your a limit whore.

though, i agree there is too much emphasis on bet size, i dont think this raise to 300 is much different for his hand range than a raise to 500 would have been.

[CardSharpCook]

Paul this is a quote from you post in "FlopA"

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Scenario 1) If he check-raise...This is what I would do if I were him with a flush draw or straight draw or pair with a gut draw. The reason is that as the opponent you have us covered and chips. And if a scare card comes on the turn then I want to be able to make a big enough bet that will scare my opponent into folding even if it doesn't make my hand. So if I were him, I'd probably raise 4-4.5x the size of our bet depending on the size of our bet. If I were him, I'd want us to fear that we're going to have to be ready to go broke.


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If villian had raised to 600-700, you would have called... but he raised to 300 and you want to fold? Does that make sense to you? An opponent who has raised to 700 here will likely push the turn. Will you call that too? All we have to do to get Paul Thomson to pay us off is to bet big? All we have to do to get him to fold is min-raise? Your plan has some flaws. Do you see them? At this point in the hand, this is looking like one of the hands Gigabet is talking about when he talks about stacking your opponent by playing speculative hands early. Flopping two-pair is GOOD. True, there are turns to worry about, but right now I am dancing in my seat. My lure has snagged a bass, all I have to do is reel him in (and avoid the sharks that take the form of 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

[NoahSD]

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I hear a lot of players on this forum (and on poker tables across America) talk about the size of an opponent's bet, and then start to imagine all sorts of reasons for it. "he bet so big becuase it is a COMPLETE bluff." "The min-raise can ONLY mean AA/KK." "That was just a min-raise. He MUST be weak." The truth is that villians come from a variety of backgrounds and poker traditions and the thinking they put into the hand has convinced them that the optimal raise is X. That you would raise to Y if you had their hand, Z if you had something stronger, and X only on a bluff or with the nuts...really doesn't matter to the villian. Don't put too much weight on an opponent's raise/bet amounts until you see them put in several raises of the same size with the same caliber hand. Hell, when I first starting playing, every single one of my bets/raises were exactly the same size (unless I went all-in). Do you have any reason to believe that villian isn't simply making his standard raise? Learn the villian. Don't think that all villians think like you, think alike, or even think at all.

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In HOH, Harrington jokes about when people ask him to analyze a NL hand and leave out all the numbers. I suspect that a lot of NL poker players forget to think about the numbers at times (or all the time) and think "I'm going to raise" and just leave the amount to their imagination and the slider bar/chips. I'm sure this is much less frequent as stakes increase, but I can't imagine that it completely dies out.

[Mjafish]

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thats cause your a limit whore.


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haha, limit teaches a lot about how to pick up on betting patterns. when i play limit, i tend to focus on when a villain is betting, rather than how much. in NL, i should be focusing on the when first and the how much second, but its hard to do so when your imagination is hypothesizing crazy things about bet sizes.
i just realized this after reading CSC's post now.

[bennies]

Call. It disguises our hand nicely for the coming streets, villains minraise is designed to confuse Hero and make us reveal our hand. Calling hardly tells him anything, Hero could have a hand as weak as A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

For the rest of the hand (but more about that tomorrow) I plan to become a calling station unless stuff like 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] appears on the board. Let him hang himself.

[Kirkrrr]

My original plan was to 3-bet if he check-raises but now I think a call is better. I'm not worried about him bluffing at a dangerous turn card since it will look just as scary to him as to me if I just call.

There's really not a meaningful range to put him on.

I'm raising any safe turn and betting if checked to.

Kirk

[Sluss]

I"m calling here. I think he has defined his hand as "something decent." I would say top pair, a good flush draw A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or some type of up and down straight draw a set is still semi possible though it is only slightly in the back of my head and I'm not too concerned with it.

I don't want to raise here because I'm now not as confident my hand is best or I don't want him to push a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] because I can't call that.

I have now become more willing to lay this hand down on the turn if a bad card comes. I'm going to try and keep this pot small unless a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits on the turn. I'll call a reasonable bet. If he comes out firing out with a big bet (like <800 or so) I'm willing to fold.

I don't know yet if he is a donk who will go crazy with top pair here. If I had a better idea I would feel better about this hand.

[jon_1van]

1) Do you fold, call, or raise (and why)? If you raise, to what amount? Putting aside a fold for the time being, there are certainly merits to both calling and raising so please spend some time on your thought process here.

I raise to 900. Making it 600 to the opponent.

I really want this hand over now. If the opponent puts us on a big PP, which he very well could if we reraise here, AND STILL gives us action/pushes we are very likely beaten. Yes, there is a slim chance that he'd repush over with A7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. But we don't exactly have this hand crushed. We are beating it, but we aren't crushing it. But because 1/3 or so (guessing) turn or river cards are really ugly. I say put your opponent to the test now.

Fold to a push. (I say this now, but I'm not sure I could actually make the fold...over played high pair might have me calling).

2) His range of possible hands is obviously pretty huge but if you care to speculate feel free?

I think he could make this raise with a bunch of hands we have beat....any pair, any pair + draw, made hand. Consequently, I like my raise to help refine the hand range. "editted to add" The raise also helps avoid the enevitible turn bet from the opponent. And given the nature of the board, there are many many turn cards that will put us in a guessing game for big chuncks of our stack. After all, if we represent an overpair, and he ignores what we tell him, there is a very good chance we are behind. Worst case scenario we fold to a push from a hand like A7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] "end edit"

3) If you call or raise and he calls, do you have a plan for future streets?

If he calls, I hate hate hate it. The reason I hate it is because I feel it will be very difficult to formulate a plan to play the turn correctly. Will he bet to regardless? Will he bet to "price himself" in? Do you let him get a free river if he calls (possibly looking to hit the flush)?

The reason I recommended betting 100 on the flop was that this raise becomes much less substantial. And we don't want to be threatening our stack quite so much with this hand and this board.

[jon_1van]

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I plan on 2/3 potting it if checked to on any nice turn (low rag, paint card, 7 or 5). It really looks like he's either got top pair here or a low pp, also a possibility is just a fd or fd with the overcards. He likely put you on big cards or a high pp so he's trying to define your hand range.


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I really doubt your going to get checked to on the turn. You might if the turn is an A and your opponented did have something like 33. But outside this, expect to be bet into on the turn.

Also, if you think your opponent could easily have top pair, then he can very easily have a gut shot draw to go along with that. So I think smooth calling could be more dangerous than you think

Not to mention that I think 1/3 of the time 1 draw or another gets there by the river.