30/60 turn spot

[GoodCallYouWin]

Grunching :

I like it, check behind / fold the river to a bet. My default is to check behind the turn here, but I understand most people like betting and you have so many outs it can't be far off. Three bet is good for metagame, because you can easily have the 8 (or I can anyway here, haha), your hand could be best (obviously fairly unlikely if called but not entirely impossible), and you have a lot of outs to improve.

If you hit the A or 10 on the river and he leads out it's probably still a fold, but it's close between that and calling.

[Joe Tall]

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All--

OK, so since so many people here seemed to feel so strongly about checking, and I think it's terrible, I just asked a very good player and even better poker theorist about this hand.

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bulldogs1729 (11:28:51 PM): hey, happy thanksgiving. quick poker question if you have a minute/ are around.
Very Good Player and Even Better Poker Theorist (11:33:02 PM): yeah what up
bulldogs1729 (11:33:10 PM): limit hold'em
bulldogs1729 (11:33:14 PM): you open the cutoff with Ac Tc
bulldogs1729 (11:33:16 PM): BB calls
bulldogs1729 (11:33:20 PM): flop 9h 6c 5c
bulldogs1729 (11:33:22 PM): BB ch-call
bulldogs1729 (11:33:25 PM): turn 7d
bulldogs1729 (11:33:27 PM): BB checks, you?
VGPaEBPT (11:34:10 PM): bet
VGPaEBPT (11:34:15 PM): wait
VGPaEBPT (11:34:20 PM): is this a trick question?

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--Nate

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Your friend should change his IM-name.

[PokerBob]

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i also dont understand pbob's "if you bet turn you have to bet river". most people that stubbornly call turn again with 1 pair no redraw will insta payoff on river. some will fold but they are fairly rare. if they had worse flush draw and hit a pair that they might have folded then oh well.

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i think if we are going to turn our hand into a bluff, then we need to have the balls to see it through. that said, i don't want to turn this hand into a bluff, so i check the turn.

fwiw, i think a pair calls us on the turn almost always, and obv a straight c/rs us. the only better hands that are gonna fold that turn are a AQ-AJ, or a retardedly played AK.

[HOWMANY]

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Three bet is good for metagame, because you can easily have the 8 (or I can anyway here, haha)

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yes thats nice but then he raised us so what does he have that he doesnt care that we can have an 8? ill give you a hint. he has an 8.

[PokerBob]

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if we check turn then calling a river bet is horrible. the pot is tiny and we have to give him credit for peeling the flop with no pair no draw on a coordinated board.

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i'm not sure this is true. one of the arguments for betting the turn is that he could have clubs, and some seem to think he will call the turn with absolutely nothing. so let him bluff it on the river.

i don't know if i'd call the river, but i am fairly confident that if i'm gonna put a bet in on the big streets here (unimproved), a river call is more profitable than a turn bet.

[GoodCallYouWin]

I think air makes up a decent portion of his range, K2 and the like. He has to think air makes up a giant part of our range.

[PokerBob]

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I think air makes up a decent portion of his range, K2 and the like. He has to think air makes up a giant part of our range.

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you really think he has K2 here?!?!? WTF?!?!?

[HOWMANY]

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I think air makes up a decent portion of his range, K2 and the like. He has to think air makes up a giant part of our range.

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honest to god i just went back and reread the op and all the replies to make sure i was in the right thread and replying about the same hand. he peels the flop with K2. then he c/r bluffs no pair no draw on a 4 straight with a flush draw possible board. in a live 30/60 game? i just want to make sure im getting this right.

[Garland]

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I just saw this thread. I bet the turn, call the c/r, and river a flush.

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this is just awful. if you're gonna river a flush, 3bet the goddamn turn.

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I'm not going to edit/delete this out like someone else did earlier, but wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I'm sorry, I know you've etched the correct play in your head already by checking the turn. I'm not exactly sure what you're willing to bet on this turn, but if you're only willing to bet an 8 here, this is extremely exploitable.

These are one of these spots were I'm going to take a shot and try to win the pot without improvement. I'd much, much rather bet the turn and check the river unimproved than check the turn and call a river bet unimproved. You said your opponents never fold a pair? Ok, how about AJ? AQ? Maybe AK (forget he didn't 3-bet pre). How about any hand that has 6 outs against us when we're actually ahead (KQ, KJ, QJ)?

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even spewmaster schneids said he only bets it 33-50% of the time

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Really? Well, while I'm not sure, I believe he plays the majority of his games in high and nosebleed stakes, so maybe that's where he gets his 33-50%. Maybe those players have a different dynamic; I honestly don't know. If he played mid-stakes full time I'd have a hard time believing those numbers wouldn't be higher. Anyhow, it's clear that he at least bets it some of the time while you've pretty much closed the door on it at 0%.

And BTW, there's no requisite to bet the turn and bet the river again. This is an opponent/read situational type of thing. You are allowed to check behind on the river if you feel another bet won't lodge his cards to the muck often enough, however the real purpose of betting the turn is to get his cards into the muck earlier.

If and only if I had information that BB was a habitual check-raiser would I check this turn behind. The default play is to bet, and it isn't even close.

Garland

[PokerBob]

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I'm not exactly sure what you're willing to bet on this turn, but if you're only willing to bet an 8 here, this is extremely exploitable.

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Please explain how.

For the record, I never said I'd only bet an 8 here.