High Stakes Poker thread (10/21) (spoilers to come)

[JDesab]

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His fold of qq was easy,

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jman says in his post that he wishes there was a game where he and the other internet pros can use their reading and poker acumen to play. so if these internet guys are such good readers and thinkers... why run away from this hand. i would think that the correct play in that situation would be to raise sammy... but i'm not the internet god that you all worship so i'll stay at my live table.



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that would actually be by far the worst play, so its probably in your best interest to stay at your live table honestly

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explain. the k hits... you should know that sammy is capable of betting with air. you have a big hand.. is it not worth raising sammy to see where you're at. now ... i have also read JMAN'S hsp post.. and he says there "i brought 700k... 500 for day 3 and 200 for two buy ins on day 2".... would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing? you did bring a second bullet right. i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.

you know that you're not playing level 1 poker players sitting at that table.. you can imagine that they're going to test the new, young guy. a shove here would have won, we know that because we got to see the hole cards..but if he did shove and had lost... do you think sammy would be playing at him on future flops the same way.

[JDesab]

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lol. 90% of people commenting in this thread have not read the Jman NVG thread which was linked to, in which he explained:

- That he played pretty tight because he only had 720K with him. It's not that he isn't rolled for the game, but that he could only move 720K in time. It's not like you can just fly to Vegas and withdraw 1 mill from a kerbside ATM.

- That he only played FIFTY HANDS in his whole time there. I don't think you can draw any firm conclusions about him from 50 hands. People talk about how we criticise other pros on this forum on the basis of what we see on TV, but that's (mostly) actually HANDS THEY'VE PLAYED. You don't see me joining in on this nonsense about how Harman is a nit, for instance.

- That he would "salivate" over the prospect of playing virtually anyone at the table HU, live.

- That he has never been called a nit before in his life (usual epithets are more stuff like "station", "lagtard", etc).

The QQ hand was questionable, but reasonable. He didn't bet the flop because he was vs aggro players and couldn't stand a raise. The turn he was sandwiched in between Farha, who bet, and the other guy. He could certainly have played the hand other ways, but his line was reasonable.

You can't draw any conclusions one way or the other from his play on HSP, but the fact that he plays nosebleed games online and wins (and that most (all?) of the people at that table don't) is evidence that he's probably pretty good.

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my sister makes similar excuses for my nephew as to why he sits the bench on his mitey mite football team...

guess what... when he gets tackled for a loss.. he jumps up and calls the kid that tackled him out... just like jman did ... ooh wait he didn't. he said he "wanted to" challenge hellmuth to a heads up match.

sounds like a lot of teenage chest thumping... oh wait.. that's pretty much what online poker is anyway isn't it.

[Micro Donk]

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lol. 90% of people commenting in this thread have not read the Jman NVG thread which was linked to, in which he explained:

- That he played pretty tight because he only had 720K with him. It's not that he isn't rolled for the game, but that he could only move 720K in time. It's not like you can just fly to Vegas and withdraw 1 mill from a kerbside ATM.

- That he only played FIFTY HANDS in his whole time there. I don't think you can draw any firm conclusions about him from 50 hands. People talk about how we criticise other pros on this forum on the basis of what we see on TV, but that's (mostly) actually HANDS THEY'VE PLAYED. You don't see me joining in on this nonsense about how Harman is a nit, for instance.

- That he would "salivate" over the prospect of playing virtually anyone at the table HU, live.

- That he has never been called a nit before in his life (usual epithets are more stuff like "station", "lagtard", etc).

The QQ hand was questionable, but reasonable. He didn't bet the flop because he was vs aggro players and couldn't stand a raise. The turn he was sandwiched in between Farha, who bet, and the other guy. He could certainly have played the hand other ways, but his line was reasonable.

You can't draw any conclusions one way or the other from his play on HSP, but the fact that he plays nosebleed games online and wins (and that most (all?) of the people at that table don't) is evidence that he's probably pretty good.

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my sister makes similar excuses for my nephew as to why he sits the bench on his mitey mite football team...

guess what... when he gets tackled for a loss.. he jumps up and calls the kid that tackled him out... just like jman did ... ooh wait he didn't. he said he "wanted to" challenge hellmuth to a heads up match.

sounds like a lot of teenage chest thumping... oh wait.. that's pretty much what online poker is anyway isn't it.

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i guess you missed brandon adams just a few posts up defending jman? and saying what most of us have been saying to you?

[DevinLake]

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would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing? you did bring a second bullet right. i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.


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If you are raising QQ here for any reason, it should not be to find out if he has a K. That's just dumb. You would be raising to protect ur hand against a fourth diamond (? heart?, whatever). But, you are essentially turning your hand into a bluff. So, you might as well have 72o. I don't think you understand this, so maybe ur not qualified to judge his play.

His other option, calling: With a player left to act and no cards that can come on the river that'll you like just really isn't a nice spot to put your self in. A lot of playing good poker, is just not putting your self in [censored] situations.

Sure, he could shove his stack in the middle. If he folds jman had the best hand, if he calls jman doesn't. Sounds like a -EV bet to me.

[KiwiMark]

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oh and OMGifoldeveryhand(phil galfond) was any better?

Two weeks/episodes and he played 2 hands:

1.Folded QQ to Farha,after checking a harmless flop,and sammy raised the turn

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Harmless flop? WTF!

Are you suggesting that he should have known somehow that Sammy Farha was not capable of calling his preflop raise with K7o?

Preflop Phil raised to 6500, after the turn he is looking at having to put in 16000 and has another player left to act after him. He cannot beat top pair, and he has only 2 outs if another player has a king - but he could be drawing dead.

His QQ cannot beat:
Any hand with a king like K7o
97o (drawing dead)
Any 2 diamonds (drawing dead)

When Phil Hellmuth folded QQ to Sammy Farha with a King on the board no one called him crazy.

BTW
I have no problem with the way that Jennifer Harman is playing either.

[futuredoc85]

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His fold of qq was easy,

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jman says in his post that he wishes there was a game where he and the other internet pros can use their reading and poker acumen to play. so if these internet guys are such good readers and thinkers... why run away from this hand. i would think that the correct play in that situation would be to raise sammy... but i'm not the internet god that you all worship so i'll stay at my live table.



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that would actually be by far the worst play, so its probably in your best interest to stay at your live table honestly

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explain. the k hits... you should know that sammy is capable of betting with air. you have a big hand.. is it not worth raising sammy to see where you're at. now ... i have also read JMAN'S hsp post.. and he says there "i brought 700k... 500 for day 3 and 200 for two buy ins on day 2".... would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing? you did bring a second bullet right. i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.



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raise to see where you're at? seriously? the alternative to folding would be calling rather than turning QQ into a bluff for no reason whatsoever. wow

[futuredoc85]

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lol. 90% of people commenting in this thread have not read the Jman NVG thread which was linked to, in which he explained:

- That he played pretty tight because he only had 720K with him. It's not that he isn't rolled for the game, but that he could only move 720K in time. It's not like you can just fly to Vegas and withdraw 1 mill from a kerbside ATM.

- That he only played FIFTY HANDS in his whole time there. I don't think you can draw any firm conclusions about him from 50 hands. People talk about how we criticise other pros on this forum on the basis of what we see on TV, but that's (mostly) actually HANDS THEY'VE PLAYED. You don't see me joining in on this nonsense about how Harman is a nit, for instance.

- That he would "salivate" over the prospect of playing virtually anyone at the table HU, live.

- That he has never been called a nit before in his life (usual epithets are more stuff like "station", "lagtard", etc).

The QQ hand was questionable, but reasonable. He didn't bet the flop because he was vs aggro players and couldn't stand a raise. The turn he was sandwiched in between Farha, who bet, and the other guy. He could certainly have played the hand other ways, but his line was reasonable.

You can't draw any conclusions one way or the other from his play on HSP, but the fact that he plays nosebleed games online and wins (and that most (all?) of the people at that table don't) is evidence that he's probably pretty good.

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my sister makes similar excuses for my nephew as to why he sits the bench on his mitey mite football team...

guess what... when he gets tackled for a loss.. he jumps up and calls the kid that tackled him out... just like jman did ... ooh wait he didn't. he said he "wanted to" challenge hellmuth to a heads up match.

sounds like a lot of teenage chest thumping... oh wait.. that's pretty much what online poker is anyway isn't it.

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sigh this is hopeless

[Dromar]

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I think I get dumber every time I venture outside of a strat forum to read some of this senseless drivel.

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I know exactly what you mean. It recently dawned on me that posting and reading in the TV forum is a complete waste of time.

Sigh... but I really enjoy HSP, so I still visit here.

[aislephive]

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- HAHAHAHAHA. Any of you Farha defenders willing to explain to me how calling that turn raise with the 99 was a play so advanced I can't understand it?

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I don't think his call was that atrocious, Gold makes a lot of completely random bluffs and pretty much whenever he took a line that looked like a bluff, that's what he had. Gold bluffs too much and doesn't valuebet enough, so I can certainly see calling being ok. Still probably a fold because he will bet the river a lot and it's tough for us to call, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

[Dromar]

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His fold of qq was easy,

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jman says in his post that he wishes there was a game where he and the other internet pros can use their reading and poker acumen to play. so if these internet guys are such good readers and thinkers... why run away from this hand. i would think that the correct play in that situation would be to raise sammy... but i'm not the internet god that you all worship so i'll stay at my live table.



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that would actually be by far the worst play, so its probably in your best interest to stay at your live table honestly

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explain.

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Alright, let's do this. For completeness and for reference, I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread, since people seem to be getting facts about the hand mixed up.

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Here's the hand:
Negreanu btn, Hellmuth posts 300, Harman posts 600, Brandon posts 1200. Farha UTG calls 1200, Gold fold, jman raises to 6500, Elezra calls 6500, folds to Farha who calls.
Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 22400)
Farha check, jman check, Elezra check.
Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pot 22400)
Farha bets 16000, jman folds, Elezra folds.

(Farha had [Jc5c], Elezra had [4s3s])

I wouldn't exactly call 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] a harmless flop for Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with two opponents, one of which has position on you. A bit more leniency could also be afforded to jman since he hadn't gotten a feel for the flow of the game yet, but regardless, I think this is being misrepresented as some sort of atrocious weak/tight play from Galfond.


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Ok. Here we go.

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the k hits... you should know that sammy is capable of betting with air.

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Obviously. I agree.

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you have a big hand..

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Nope. You'd be right in saying that jman had a big hand (preflop), but Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is NOT a big hand on a 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop. In fact, it's a pretty crappy hand against two opponents, one of whom has position on you. Sure, you might be winning, but if you bet and get called (or raised), you don't have a single good way to continue the hand. As an earlier poster said, a large part of good poker playing is staying out of bad situations, and this is an example of that. I don't understand why you think he has a big hand here.

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is it not worth raising sammy to see where you're at.

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Maybe, but only as a bluff. But it's still inadvisable. I think if you want to do something like this, betting the flop would be a better choice.

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would QQ against sammy not be a bad spot to put him to the test to find out if he actually has the K he's representing?

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No, it would be a bad spot, for the reasons mentioned above.

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you did bring a second bullet right.

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That's no reason to make a bad move.

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i fail to see how the weak play that this internet balla is the right move.

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I think that, by the definition of weak, weak play could never be the right move. But this isn't weak play. This is tight play standard for a TAG style. Tight is not (necessarily) weak.


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you know that you're not playing level 1 poker players sitting at that table.. you can imagine that they're going to test the new, young guy.

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Ok, sure.

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a shove here would have won, we know that because we got to see the hole cards..

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Yes, but as I'm sure you know, we can't let our knowledge of hole cards affect our reasoning for the hand.

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but if he did shove and had lost... do you think sammy would be playing at him on future flops the same way.

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Maybe, maybe not. Do you think it's worth such an investment to maybe get Sammy to play differently against you for the next 2 hours? Or even for the next day? As said in ToP, the less you expect to play against a specific opponent, the more standard your plays should be (aka don't advertise for someone you'll never play again).