KK on board with 4-straight. Stupid bet?

[phuc]

I need some help on my thinking in this hand. Want to see if I should have played it differently.

Game is live $5/$10 NL with effective stacks of $850.

One early position limper (Villian). Villian is a fairly loose player who is in preflop 75% of the time and will call a raise on about 75% of those times (rough estimates, obviously). Postflop, he seems to pay people off if he thinks he has a chance to win, but doesn't always raise when he has the best hand.

I find K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in late position and raise to $45. Everyone folds back to Villian who calls.

Flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villian checks to me. I bet $105. Villian quickly calls.

Turn is 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villian checks to me. I bet $200. Villian calls.

River is 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Villian checks to me. What's my play here? What are the hands that the Villian is likely to have?

I decided that he may have hit two pair or the straight, but it's most likely he was calling with the queen (something like KQ) so I decided to push it a bit and make a value bet on the river for $300. (note: villian only has $500 at this point and I'd probably be obligated to call if he pushes) Comments? How dumb was this bet?

EDIT: another note. my image is fairly tight and a solid player, but Villian is fairly new to the table and hasn't seen me play much. he's played plenty of hands (and my memory of his previous sessions) to give me a pretty decent idea of his play. Villian probably doesn't have any real impressions of my table image at this point (and may not really take it into account as much as a solid player would anyway)

[fslexcduck]

just shove, it looks bluffier and if he's calling 300 with a Q he's usually calling 500

[phuc]

so it's that straight forward? it's a definite bet on the river? The pot is getting quite large for one pair on what could be considered a scary board.

[Charmer]

Yeah shove... how does he ever have a 7 here?

[phuc]

ok. sounds good to me. I was getting a bit of lip for betting the river by a few people and I didn't think it was too far off, but then again, he could have been calling with Qx suited where x is any of those cards 4 thru 8. While not likely, it was very possible given this guy's preflop looseness.

Thanks everyone. FWIW, he had QJs and quickly called the river so I'm guessing a push would have been called as well. I was a bit worried since he called fairly quickly, but I flipped up my hand and was relieved when he mucked.

[ace93rd]

Considering villian is how you described I think it is a bad idea to want to value-bet this river and get all the chips in. Considering how villian played hand his range is wide but probably fits into top-pair, inside str8 draw, or perhaps a two-pair/slow played set. The str8 draws got there by making the str8 or turning into two pair on river(ex: 57,56) How the hand played out I would lean equally towards him having you beat on river as him not. Now here is the catch, given that this is the case it wouldnt make logical sense to bet non all-in here..since if he has you beat he will most likely raise and win all $500 from you, whatever you bet as well as the rest since you are commited when he goes all-in)so 50% of time you will lose $500...on the other hand if you have him beat 50% of time but only bet say $300 he will just call that bet when you have him beat. so 50% of time he will win $500 and %50 of time you will win just $300. So given this, the only bet if one is to be made is all-in.

I guess to sum it up if you bet considering you are pot-commited anyway your bet should be all-in...although, wanting to put all your chips in on this type of board wont show a significant profit as your hand is quit vulnerable, you really only have over-pair which is only slight better than top pair....generally speaking Big pots should be made from big hands (sets, str8s,flush,fullhouse) and pots should be kept small when possible with vulnerable hands(Top pair, over-pair, even 2 pair).