Checking the turn in position

Absolution · #1 09-23-2007, 08:47 PM

So here are some hands the represent a leak of mine. I tend to do this near the end of a long session when I'm trying to push too hard. I messed up a lot in these hands, but I'm really interested in the turn in these hands. I remember miles writing a post a while ago where he showed some hands that he checked behind on the turn when he was the pre-flop aggressor and it was heads up. He thought he checked behind a lot more than most people here and from the responses he was right. I feel somewhat lost on the turn in these spots and tend to play too much by feel. When do you check behind on the turn when it's heads up and you were the pre-flop raiser?

Hand 1:

Against a calling station who I've seen peel the flop and then fold in the past.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP calls.

This is probably too weak of a hand to isolate.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.

I have a gutshot and possible 2 live cards and I've seen him fold the turn in the past so I fired again. What if this were against a more aggressive player? Easy check through right?

River: (5.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls.

That's a pointless bet because I have the nut high no pair and this guy doesn't fold on the river for one bet when he has a pair.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Hand 2:

Against a loose passive, but I'm not sure about his peeling range. I'd assume it's quite large and could be any 2. That doesn't mean he'll give up though on the turn.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Should I even be raising here against a guy that will always call and probably peel most flops?

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

All my outs are potentially clean in this spot and if he was peeling with A high he might fold it here. Is this another check through against a more aggressive player?

River: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

This is also a pointless bet because I'm basically hoping to fold out A or K high, but if he was drawing on this board I could still have the best hand.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

I'd like to put more thought into balancing checking through on the turn (basically giving up the pot unless I improve or he checks the river) versus semi-bluffing or betting for a free showdown unimproved.

BigBadBabar · #2 09-23-2007, 09:06 PM

have you ever heard the maxim of checking with outs?

NinaWilliams · #3 09-23-2007, 09:15 PM

hand #2 is fine besides the river. Nice draw, lots of trash can peel the flop etc.

Hand #1 is gross on every street besides the flop. KJ8 hits so many hands and hes never folding anything. Id just check and hope that I could my T.

SuperWhale · #4 09-23-2007, 09:56 PM

I agree with Nina.

The river bets are pretty bad if you are making them and understand why they are bad at the time.

I think I played against you a while back at stars micros, I'll send you a PM.

Leader · #5 09-23-2007, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a gutshot and possible 2 live cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Note, this is a reason to check. When you have a weak draw which can't stand a check raise, you should check unless villain folds often and raises rarely.

You're right about the river it's bad.

Also pf, it's not like I've never done that, but it's no good 98% of the time (even more true at this limit).

Hand 2 is better because the turn is an over, the flop is low, and your draw is strong, but just check the river. If this river betting is common for you, it's a pretty big leak.

Absolution · #6 09-24-2007, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If this river betting is common for you, it's a pretty big leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river is not common. I usually end my session if I start doing things like that. Other things that end my session are easy value bets missed continuously, spite raises and generally playing fancy against calling stations.

rzk · #7 09-24-2007, 01:30 AM

it's not obvious to me that against a passive player the turn bet in hand 1 is bad. do we assume that he folds A3o-A9o on the turn? if so, i think it's probably ok to bet the turn for a free showdown. if he doesn't fold A3o-A9o then of course the turn is a must-check.

jt1 · #8 09-24-2007, 06:37 AM

I only check the turn with outs when I have showdownable hands. Smarter people than I are saying that this is a leak. I would like to know why. Here is my theory and hopefully someone will be kind enough to respond.

Metagame -

If you only check the turn through with hands with which you plan on calling a river bet than observant LAG's will only bet into you when they have a hand.

FWIW, like I indicated, I bet both turns, however, using the above logic - checking the turn in hand one seems right and betting it in hand two seems best. (you need a fold less often in hand two than in hand one)

Oink · #9 09-24-2007, 08:05 AM

Stop saying: "Check the turn behind when you have outs"

Its one of those stupid dogmas that float around and are completely useless. As in everything else in poker IT DEPENDS!

If you can fold out better hands and have a good draw then bet for christ sake!

If you have a weakish draw and are not folding out better hands then check and avoid getting raised. Call a river bet if you have SD value.

So JT1 is on to something. When you have SD value with A high then there are less better hands you can fold compared to the J high OESD in hand 2. So checking behind with SD value is the equivalent of there being less better hands you fold which makes your semibluff less profitable.

@OP

Check hand 1 and bet hand 2. Its pretty simple stuff. You fold better hands in hand 2 and your draw is strong. Your draw is weakish in hand 1 and his peeling range is a lot stronger meaning you dont fold a lot of better hands. So check and hope he checks a worse hand on the river.

Oh, and dont bet the river in hand 2. Besides KT and KJ, the only missed draws he will fold are draws that you beat already. Check and win the pot when he has a busted straight draw.

jt1 · #10 09-24-2007, 09:39 AM

In hand one, betting has to have some merit. Weak Ace high hands will often fold and worse hands don't have the opportunity of bluffing the river. This is why I have been betting the turn here.

However, if you will get raised more than 1/8 times (the equivalent of your equity) than you should consider checking.

But if your check will induce a bluff 1/5 times than you should consider betting. (4-1 is villains pot odds for a river bluff)

But what if both are true: By checking you are surrendering .75 bb and by betting you are surrendering .56 bb. Also by betting, you are gaining value from worse hands that have a draw.

PS: I used 7 outs to calculate your equity.

From this look, I have betting to be better than checking against all but the most aggressive LAGs unless you are applying metagame considerations.