The Well: xorbie (summary 02/03/07)

bubaloo · #1 12-01-2007, 04:12 PM

The Well: xorbie (summary 02/03/07)

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A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except tuesday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer" . The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on tuesday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on tuesday, its your day in the well .

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What up SSNL. Don't know correct protocal so I just started this.

 Background?
What level you play?
How many tables?
Any tips for SSNL?
Did you have any "aha" moments where everything just started to click?
Want to share any hands that you are proud of? Maybe a sick call down, a nice bluff. Biggest pot or something?

NL1000 and NL2000 are my primary games right now, though I will play higher if the competition is VERY bad or play lower if tables aren't really running or if the games are very bad. I tend to play as many tables as I feel like, which is somewhere from 6-10.

Tips for SSNL, probably a lot. Would have to be more specific.

Aha moments, yeah I've had a ton. I'll describe a few throughout.

Hands, I'll go look through PT.

 what it do xorbie?
poker story?
what FTP games u playing atm>?
how easy was the move up from 100nl to wherever you are now?
what it do? 

It do good, it do good.

Poker story is fun. I started two years ago when my friends randomly started playing NL. I decided I liked it, found 2+2 somehow, read a bunch and deposited some on Party. Lost $600 at 25NL. Life tilt. Made it back. Went from $1k --> $6k --> $1k --> $15k --> $5k --> $1k. Life tilt.

At that point I just stopped playing for a while. Then in December I started again at NL100, determined not to make any mistakes. I ran decently well, moved up to NL200, ran meh but made enough to barely be staked for NL400. Then I just tore it up, played about 50k hands over winter break and worked my bankroll high enough to play where I am now.

The move up wasn't so hard just because I'd played higher before, so I was used to the agression and what not, although the first few times I started playing NL2000 it was tough to put in a stack on a draw/bluff.

 How do you deal with overagressive opponents who 3 bet you with position? 

Depends. If it's just an overaggro douche I will try to always be the one to put the money in with mediocre but better than his range hands. This means sometimes shoving PF and sometimes taking a flop and crai.

If he's a "thinking" player, I wait for fairly strong hands and 4bet them all. These guys love to push thinking you are playing back light and you can get it in with AQ vs 56 all day.

 What's the worst hand you open with utg 6max? 

Anything sooted I will on occasion open UTG if I'm bored. The worst hand I regularly open UTG is 45s or ATo depending on how you define it.

 vpip/pfr? 

Depends. 20/15 or 28/22 or somewhere in between.

 winrates since starting to play again? 

About 4PTBB/100. Can't seem to beat 3/6 though.

 toughest FTP pro that you've played against? 

Eh. None of them are really any good at NL (of those that play my games).

 worst? 

Stuart Patterson.

 Who are the toughest players you routinely play against? What makes them tough to you? 

People who are good with position and know how to bluff.

 Given that on FTP/Stars the games have gotten significantly harder, what kind of table selection do you use? Do you look for weak tight nits you can bully around, overaggro tags, bad lags, etc? 

I sit down at whatever table is going or just sit at empty tables and wait for people to sit. If I feel like I don't have an edge, I leave. I think I'm good enough that I can beat, at least slightly, most mediocre regs so I don't particularly scope things out much because at FTP there just aren't a ton of games going.

When I played 2/4, I would try to find tables with people who were deep because those tended to be more aggro and wild, which worked well because I played a pretty tight game.

 what single thing you've read most helped you to improve the quality of your game (2+2 post, book, whatever)? 

2+2 certainly helped a ton. I've never read any books. The rest was me.

 Rank the following factors in importance on how they affect the frequency of your continuation bets?
A) How many players called preflop
B) Stack sizes
C) Your image
D) What kind of player(s) called preflop
E) Your relative position on the flop
F) The position you started in preflop (ie. UTG as oppose to button)
G) Your hand
H) Range you give villain based on preflop action and your read on them as a player
F) The number of players seated at the table
G) Texture of the flop 

Well obviously your hand is most important. After that, G and A, just try to figure out how likely it is you get everyone to fold based on the board. H matters I suppose but it's not really something I think much about unless its HU vs a very very straighforward player, basically just assume people have two cards that are both big or both the same or sooted.

 6max do you ever limp behind in MP when UTG open limps? How do you feel about limping behind in positions other then the blinds? 

Sure, all the time. I'll limp small pairs and suited connectors if I feel that I'll be able to get make a decent amount if I hit. It sucks to raise a hand like that behind a bad limper only to get 3bet or called behind and end up with a very inflated pot and garbage.

 What are some keys to beating tough players?
What are some keys to being a tough player?
Vague question, just speak your mind. 

Position and knowing when to pick up pots and when to vbet light. That is everything there ever was is or will be in poker.

 what street do most players make the biggest mistake on? 

The flop for sure. People who say the river are generally wrong, because bad river play is often the result of poor planning pf and on the flop or turn.

 I started asking eajones about these things, and why not continue it here.

Green Plastic 'preaches' that his pfr is very close to his vpip, in ohther words he 3bets a lot.
What are your thoughts on this
Do you ever just call from the oop pf (like in the blinds), and what kind of hands are such calling hands ... or rather if nothing else, can you give an example, where you would call a raise preflop oop (something other than setmining a bad tag willing to go broke with TP) ? 

3betting a ton is one way to do things and certainly I'll play that style. The thing to do is just adopt whatever style best (or worst) suits your opponents. Against bad weak/timid/passive players, 3betting a ton is fantastic because you make a lot preflop and then make a lot postflop.

If the player is decent and agressive enough to play back at you, 3betting a lot isn't so great because you price yourself out of a lot of hands that are very profitable to play with position. It's a high variance and not necessarily higher EV strategy.

In terms of playing in the blinds, I try to call as little as possible. Against a button or CO raise I 3bet or fold most hands with a few calls mixed in.

For the most part, you really shouldn't call too much OOP and HU (multiway is totally different).

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when to vbet light.

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could you elaborate on this? Does this involve merging ranges aejones talks about?

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Yes. Basically when you bluff a lot like I used to, you realize that a lot of the 2+2 talk about worse hands calling you is rubbish. An underpair will call two bets on a lot of boards. A lot of vbetting light is just about operating on the 3rd level and knowing when people are going to put you either a decent hand or a bluff/missed draw/whatever and making them pay for it by having a better hand far more often than they expect.

 xorbie,
why cant i beat 2/4? 

Get more creative.

 Xorbie, how much do u call preflop raises? I find myself calling with a pp almost always, like most ssnl tags does. That is pretty exploitable IMO. 

Exploitable by who? If it's not actively being exploited by the guy you are playing, the most +EV play is always the most +EV play.

 What hands are u calling on CO/OTB against a standard villian ? 

Depends. Against nittier types, just pairs, big aces, sometimes a sc. Against a looser guy, I'll call most hands I'm willing to raise (and 3bet them from time to time).

 If u open your calling range pf, u have to make more moves posflop, right? 

Not necessarily. If you call QTo doesn't mean you are going to be raising a lot of low boards, just means sometimes you call down light on a T high board. Otherwise don't call with QT.

 Does any of this change if we 3bet preflop? 

you should be cbetting a lot more after 3betting because your hand is generally a lot stronger so you want calls more than folds.

 you mentioned poor planning preflop,flop and turn being one of the biggest mistakes that SSNL players make.
Could you give a general template to your planning process for a hand preflop?
Flop?
turn?
I'm sorry if the question comes across as vague but if you could give some general pointers as to the questions and considerations (obviously there are too many to list but maybe the 1 or 2 you feel are the most important) that you feel each player should be mulling over on each street to avoid the poor planning which leads to misplaying the river. 

It's not quite as simple as planning the entire hand pf or on the flop, because poker is far too complex to do things that way. There are too many variables.

The important thing is just to follow through with your plan, because making a flop call planning on raising the turn is very -EV if you end up pussing out on the turn. Especially when playing OOP, dont check raise and not know what to do on the turn. Of course sometimes a really ugly card comes and catches you off gaurd, but generally know what to do. Don't leave yourself in a situation where you play the entire hand in a very -EV fashion even if you make what seem to be +EV decisions on every street (in a vaccum).

With that said, often it is important to be able to change your plan. So let's say somewhat nitty TAG raises, you call with 99.

Flop 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets you call. At this point you're thinking you have the best hand quite often, this guy isn't going to double barrel much with overcards so you call now and fold to another bet.

Turn 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

He checks. Now here's the deal. If he has overcards and a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he has quite a few outs, so you want to either charge him to draw or have him fold. Moreover, this guy is bad. He'll call a bet here and then fold the river. So you bet.

River doesn't matter, because you push and he folds like a little girl. In isolation, his turn call looks alright and his river fold looks alright, except YOU know that you're never betting this turn and then checking back the river with THIS particular hand. This means not only did you bluff out his AA, but you even picked up an extra bet doing so.

Multistreet bluffing (and multistreet thin calldowns) are where its at.

 Talk about the differences between playing raised and limped pots? Vague again, just your random ramblings. 

With limped pots, pot size is so small relative to stack size that I just pot pot pot without really caring. I'll checkraise very bad players to try to build a pot sometimes, but besides that it's just pot pot pot.

Raised pots obviously there is a lot more caution necessary.

 Are cbets supposed to give you other value than protecting your big hands ?
And how about double barreling ??
Bluffing in general ??? 

I'm not sure I understand the question. Cbets give you value because you win the money in the pot. Double barreling gives you value because you win the money in the pot. Bluffing in general is good because you win the money in the pot.

It's alright to sacrafice some EV to protect your big hands, but some people go way overboard. Don't cbet too often in obviously -EV circumastances.

This was one of the major factors in my beating NL400 very easily.

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 Talk about the differences between playing raised and limped pots? Vague again, just your random ramblings.

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With limped pots, pot size is so small relative to stack size that I just pot pot pot without really caring. I'll checkraise very bad players to try to build a pot sometimes, but besides that it's just pot pot pot.
Raised pots obviously there is a lot more caution necessary.

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 Not to state the obvious, but what do you think happens to hand ranges in raised pots? I guess what I'm really wondering is to what degree ranges tighten up? A lot? Not as much as you might think? 

Limped pots (I play very few) actually aren't that different, because people often have crappy hands. This changes a lot when people raise, but you can value bet top pair twice quite often.

 Once I raised the turn when it was pretty obvious you were double barreling and you called me a nit in the chat. Then I sang some songs and talked about e-penises and you got mad and told me to stfu. thoughts? how was my line? 

Calling people nits is a good way to make them tilt generally speaking.

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How do you deal with overagressive opponents who 3 bet you with position?

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Depends. If it's just an overaggro douche I will try to always be the one to put the money in with mediocre but better than his range hands. This means sometimes shoving PF and sometimes taking a flop and crai.

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 what do you think are the best types of flops for doing this? 

Obviously you want a flop that doesn't connect well with his 3bet range. Generally that means no A no K.

 Hi xorbie, more AK s3bet stuff

I seem to sometimes struggle with AK OOP in 3bet pots.
Loose villan(~40% vpip] opens in MP[folds to cbets 60%+] I 3bet AKo in SB, HU to flop low rag flop, is cbetting here bad, given PPs will likely call?
Another scenario, I open UTG AKo get 3bet by BTN[ TAG reg that will 3bet lightish] is this a fold, given I'll be OOP for the rest of the hand?
(I'm perceived as niity TAG most of the time by those watching,this is NL50/NL100) 

People at NL50/100 don't really 3bet much right? If so, dumping AK OOP can be alright. If you are playing a guy who absolutely 100% will not a dump a pair ever on the flop, I'd still bet with AK.

The thing with 3bet pots is that the pot is already very inflated, so much smaller bets will still get you all in by the river. You can half pot, half pot, half pot and be all in. This makes your cbet alot less expensive and actually doesn't price you out of catching a 6 outer.