Beyond UIGEA, regs, Kyl et al., etc.

[justaPlayer]

I would like to introduce a topic and ask a few questions which I think will gain the most traction in this, the legislation forum, and certainly be met with the most informative feedback.
I'd really like to compliment some of the forum's regulars like Skallagrim, OldBookGuy, a few others, and particularly The Engineer not only for their intrepid work in advocating for the cause, but also simply for their continuous thought-provoking posts and ideas. It is to these individuals primarily that I am addressing this post, and to the others who have read, used, and enjoyed this forum as sort of a "safe haven" from the rapidly increasing retardation and pettiness which most 2p2 forums are beginning to typify. Thank you all again for your presence.

I guess the best way to begin is by saying that I am a poker player and not much else, and I am proud of that. As such, I am not planning to stop playing, at any cost, no matter what law is passed or what politician [read: whore] is in office. I know a lot of other players who feel exactly the same as I do.

It is obvious to me that what is being attempted in this country is simply thinly-veiled fascism. To say that I am disgusted by it is an understatement of the highest order. The main difference between myself and the posters I referenced in my introductory paragraph I guess is that I do not believe it can be stopped or counteracted in any way. I am very deeply ashamed of what this country is becoming, not to mention the world at large, and I have determined simply to live my life as I see fit, subtly, quietly, "off the radar". It sickens me that the assumption implicit in all spheres of American life nowadays is that we are subjects of the state.

I am wondering what, as of right now, you guys think is going to happen. I am not going to stop playing poker. Lawmakers are no longer even relevant to me. I just want you guys to tell me what I can expect. Will there always be a way to cash out? To move money between sites? Or is it these utilities that they are actually targeting? I'm looking for some reasonable future projections. I'd like to get several takes and envision several scenarios. Thank you all.

[OldNantucker]

First, i believe future legislation can be influenced in favor of online poker if banks (not wanting to police how people spend money) & casinos (can make tons of $) have a vested interest. In addition, while I am cynical about politics, I have faith that an angry, organized group of poker players who has been unfairly screwed by the govt. can fight back (see Wexler, Frank bills).

Second, even with the worst case scenario of strict regulations, there will be ways to get $ in and out for dedicated players. The problem will be that casual, recreational players may not want to jump through hoops and it will be hard to attract new players so the games will get worse and worse.

My personal opinion is that the regs will not have any significant impact on the status quo.

[JPFisher55]

I think that if no action succeeds in changing the present course, including a change of administration, the US sites like Poker Stars will intensive their efforts to evade and circumvent the UIGEA. They will work with foreign banks etc. to find a way to enable their customers to move money. Of course there is always paper checks and the sites may simply make processing them much quicker than at present.
However, I think that by 2009, court cases, WTO, change of administration or legislative action will improve the situation for US online poker players.

[justaPlayer]

I think about the same as these 2 responses. I don't see it going anywhere, really. And look at how stalwart Pokerstars and Tilt have been in remaining in the U.S. market. For this I will ALWAYS play on their sites, even if 10 new, better ones come up which I will play a lot on.

I also think Stars and Tilt have pretty much the right idea by just sort of ignoring the legislation that was passed. Like me, and how I encourage others to do.

[Legislurker]

Get your checkbook ready for 08. If youre near a House race we, the PPA, or anyone sees as vulnerable, give some time AND money. As for money, the gift card game of musical shell companies and payment processors can go on ad inifinitum. Epass seems insulated from the Wire Act. As for the sites themselves having top tier banking, that is the bigger worry. The recent piece out of the Antigua Sun said the sites were having banking issues, but Im not sure how much weight to give it. We may have a mini crisis or two this year, and the Bush lame duck year will be WORSE than this one for America, as for poker in particular, I don't know. We are so off the main radar politically anything can be done against us if they think they can. If we are lucky this will be the worst year ever for poker because we have democratic traction if someone can just harness it.
Oh yeah, keep the PPA on the list of people you bitch to.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, keep the PPA on the list of people you bitch to.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. If we want action, we have to ask. Everyone: go to my poll at http://webringamerica.com/4/pokerpla...pic.php?t=1607 and let them know. It will take 30 seconds max.

I've sent them a few emails with specific requests of things we could do to to enable the members. If we ask, we can get them moving for us. I'll help, as will a lot of us, if for no other reason than the shear size of their membership and the power they COULD have with it.

[oldbookguy]

All the responses are very good and in all likely hood accurate.

though I have not seen any drafts of the proposed regulations, the Ferderal Reserve Board (much to Kyl's chagrin)does not view the UIGEA in the way the far right (and far left)envision it.

A quote from the 2006 report to congress from the FSRB; "The act generally
defines “unlawful Internet gambling” as
transmitting a bet by any means that
involves the use, at least in part, of the
Internet and where such bet or wager is
unlawful under any applicable federal or
state law in the state or tribal lands in
which the bet or wager is initiated, received,
or otherwise made.

So, if poker was not illegal before (unless specifically stated by a state) then it is not now.

A few years ago in a MasterCard Casino gaming suit the 5th circuit and the 5th circuit appeals ruled the 1961 Wire Act does NOT cover Casinos games.

Now, the DoJ / Kyl and others claim that Internet Poker is illegal.

We are now left with the question, WHO is right?

Since the UIGEA does NOT define illegal gambling, only referencing it in general the only conclusion SHOULD be the courts have ruled and until otherwise they SHOULD be the correct authority.

obg

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd really like to compliment some of the forum's regulars like Skallagrim, OldBookGuy, a few others, and particularly The Engineer

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

[ QUOTE ]
The main difference between myself and the posters I referenced in my introductory paragraph I guess is that I do not believe it can be stopped or counteracted in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Republican Party is in disarray right now, and the Democrats are friendlier to us, to be sure. I'm not saying we're favorites to get anything, but we certainly have some greater than zero chance. It may not be for a few more years (or ever), but at minimum our fight will help maintain the status quo, so it's been worth it. Also, just on general principle I'd rather fight back than take it.

As for your question on the future, it's hard to say. I think we'll always have some games to play under the status quo...not sure what hoops we'll have to jump through. However, there is some chance that the DoJ will come after poker. There's really no way to predict. The next president really can't be worse for us, regardless of party. That should get us a better DoJ.

I think if we get a good foundation for our movement this year, we'll be in good shape for the near future, especially if the Democrats retain control of both houses of Congress.

[Skallagrim]

Guess its time for me to chime in too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Thanks for the kind words by the way.

I am in agreement with the folks above, and I think you can take it as the general consensus: there will always be some poker and some ability to move money around for americans, the only open question is just how difficult it will get and how much the player count will be affected as a result.

I give legal online poker a fighting chance both legislatively and in the Courts, and so fight we will (as I hope will the rest of the 2+2 crowd}. And even just a player can do their part: you are proud of being a poker player (as you should be) so its not too much to ask that you be LOUD about that fact. Educate the public when you have an ear, take just a little time to write a letter or two, and join the PPA even if you have low opinion of them - at least thats a way to be counted. Every action helps.

Skallagrim

[frommagio]

Interesting post. Two quick comments ....

[ QUOTE ]

I'd really like to compliment some of the forum's regulars like Skallagrim, OldBookGuy, a few others, and particularly The Engineer not only for their intrepid work in advocating for the cause, but also simply for their continuous thought-provoking posts and ideas.


[/ QUOTE ]

I also applaud TheEngineer! I'm sure we all do.

[ QUOTE ]

I have determined simply to live my life as I see fit, subtly, quietly, "off the radar". It sickens me that the assumption implicit in all spheres of American life nowadays is that we are subjects of the state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, here's the big message: You NEED to get your hands on a copy of "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" by the late Harry Browne. Out of print, but available on ebay from time to time. This book can change your life.