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#22
11-28-2007, 03:53 PM
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Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
[ QUOTE ]
about 3betting preflop: whatever, so elementary that i don't consider it worth discussing. [/ QUOTE ] I think the fact that both myself and ikestoys think you should squeeze here make it worth discussing and prevent it from being "so elementary." I know you want this thread to be about the river but I'm curious as to why you feel that way. 
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#23
11-28-2007, 04:09 PM
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Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] about 3betting preflop: whatever, so elementary that i don't consider it worth discussing. [/ QUOTE ] I think the fact that both myself and ikestoys think you should squeeze here make it worth discussing and prevent it from being "so elementary." I know you want this thread to be about the river but I'm curious as to why you feel that way. [/ QUOTE ] I squeeze and I don't like to squeeze. I hope OP means it's very elementary that he should have done so, but chose not to for some reason. Edit: The reason is that your hand loses value 3-way and you are reduced to playing for set value only, rather than decent pair value if you get heads-up, plus you just want to take it down pre OOP if you can, of course. Just call on the river, if anyone's getting pwned by raising there, it's OP not villain.
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#26
11-28-2007, 04:14 PM
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Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
[ QUOTE ]
With an aggressive image I love your value raise. [/ QUOTE ] No way. If he's calling with worse then he's calling with better and the range of worse hands he value bets on the river is way smaller than the range of better hands he value bets on the river.
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#27
11-28-2007, 04:16 PM
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Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
I would be greatly shocked if he would bet 88 or 99 here. What do you call the flop w/ that he gets to bet for value with them. If he is betting 88/99 here it is as a bluff. I would doubt that there is anybody who folds a queen here less then 25% of the time and most prob call 50% plus at least. Hes betting bluff or a queen. You beat bluff and can prob call +EV. If you raise as bluff, it is prob only going to be even EV at best. Calling def >>> raising imo.
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#29
11-28-2007, 04:58 PM
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Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
lol at armenh, let's just say that i would've described him a lot differently.
squeezing pre: i will argue all day that there's not much of an ev difference in 3betting and calling here preflop (i don't want to, i'd rather focus on the river). fwiw, i make both plays sometimes. [ QUOTE ] Edit: The reason is that your hand loses value 3-way and you are reduced to playing for set value only, rather than decent pair value if you get heads-up, plus you just want to take it down pre OOP if you can, of course. [/ QUOTE ] i want to take it down because i can't play for pair value against two guys? is that a joke? i really don't even want to entertain this. let's just say i can very much play it for pair value postflop. [ QUOTE ] Does villain believe you'd take this line with sets? I think this is important. If you missed your turn c/r, would you lead river or try c/r again? [/ QUOTE ] i would do both. i won't discuss my frequencies/logic here for obvious reasons. however, i was confident at the time that the villain would give me enough credit to think that i'd never take a line with air that i wouldn't take with a set. obviously, it's possible that i was wrong, but you can never be sure about this kind of thing.
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#30
11-28-2007, 05:05 PM
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Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
[ QUOTE ]
let's just say i can very much play it for pair value postflop. [/ QUOTE ] Out of position against two opponents with a hand that will encounter overcards 70% of the time, that's pretty difficult. Make them skilled opponents that mix up value bets with two- and three-barrels a decent amount of the time and it's hardly a "joke" to say you can't profitably play TT for pair value here. Look what happened in this hand; you've turned TT into a bluff as a result of playing it for pair value. I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with a lot of the stuff in this thread because it's fairly close, but you seem to think that a lot of things here are easy decisions when that's simply not true.
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