|
|
|
|
#2
12-01-2007, 01:27 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
ABC did a crappy job reporting that. Here is a more complete excerpt
"The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism: a protest against the injustices of the world and of world history. A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering, and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God. It is for the sake of morality that this God has to be contested. Since there is no God to create justice, it seems man himself is now called to establish justice. If in the face of this world's suffering, protest against God is understandable, the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power, whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts, will cease to dominate the world." The Pope claims that athiesm is a type of moralism and then uses the arguments of an athiest to back that claim up. Stu 
|
|
#3
12-01-2007, 03:14 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
[ QUOTE ]
"The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism: a protest against the injustices of the world and of world history. A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering, and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God. It is for the sake of morality that this God has to be contested. Since there is no God to create justice, it seems man himself is now called to establish justice. If in the face of this world's suffering, protest against God is understandable, the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power, whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts, will cease to dominate the world." [/ QUOTE ] That's some bad logic. Some really egregious reasoning. Okay. If God is omniscient, and God is omnipotent, and God is omnibenevolent, and God created the world, then the world will not be rife with suffering, cruelty and injustice. But the world is rife with such, therefore God doesn't exist. Now then. Humans aren't omni-anything. Nor did humans create the world. But humans can influence the world to some extent, in their own sloppy way. And the influences can accrue over time, resulting in a world with less cruelty, suffering, and injustice. I don't know how the Pope conflates these two wholly separate arguments. Sadly, he favors rhetoric to intelligent discourse. But he does say one thing that's easy to smash. "The claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false." Uh, yeah. Atheists don't believe in any gods. The first argument isn't saying that an omnix3 God lacks the power to do good, it's saying that an omnix3 God doesn't exist. Popie even acknowledges this beforehand. So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things. Far from being presumptuous (much less intrinsically false), this follow logically from the premise that there is no God.
|
|
#4
12-01-2007, 03:33 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
Madnak,
The Pope is talking about the atheistic regimes that arose in the 19th and 20th century. Your wrote: [ QUOTE ] So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things. [/ QUOTE ] Stalin and Mao would agree with you. The Pope is saying that when these regimes took God out of the equation, injustice and innocent suffering increased. Stu
|
|
#5
12-01-2007, 03:35 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
Stalin and Mao wouldn't agree with me. Stalin and Mao came from completely different directions - they weren't humanists. We can only say so much about their motivations, but their principles were as far from humanism as is possible.
|
|
#6
12-01-2007, 03:51 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
[ QUOTE ]
Stalin and Mao wouldn't agree with me [/ QUOTE ] Sure they would, they were atheist. If they wouldn't agree with your statement that humans are the most powerful entities therefore have the best chance of improving things, where would they place their faith? Stu
|
|
#7
12-01-2007, 10:20 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
[ QUOTE ]
Madnak, The Pope is talking about the atheistic regimes that arose in the 19th and 20th century. Your wrote: [ QUOTE ] So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things. [/ QUOTE ] Stalin and Mao would agree with you. The Pope is saying that when these regimes took God out of the equation, injustice and innocent suffering increased. Stu [/ QUOTE ]The same thing that makes us recognize Stalin and Mao as evil, is what is so evil about religion. It is not that they are atheists. It's that they demand your heart and your mind. They wish to have total control over every aspect of our lives private and personal. They want to have control over our sons and daughters. Our labor and our pleasure. We can give nothing short of obedience to them. It's not because of atheism or because of a hopeful idea, that Stalin and religion is evil. You can put God into any totalitarian government and it's still evil. It's not lack of god or inclusion of god that make the numbing of the human spirit, the freedom which we enjoy destroyed, the pleasure that we desire dulled, offend our moral sense. These are sufficient reasons to be offended. If it comes from edicts by the Pope, or an atheist. The slavery of man is a great cruelty.
|
|
#8
12-01-2007, 07:32 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
[ QUOTE ]
The same thing that makes us recognize Stalin and Mao as evil, is what is so evil about religion. It is not that they are atheists. It's that they demand your heart and your mind. They wish to have total control over every aspect of our lives private and personal. They want to have control over our sons and daughters. Our labor and our pleasure. We can give nothing short of obedience to them. [/ QUOTE ] If you want to make valid points against the Pope's encycical you have show that the Pope was wrong when he made the statement "The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism". If you do not make an argument against that statement it appears you agree with that statement and just have a double standard. Stu
|
|
#9
12-01-2007, 08:34 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
[ QUOTE ]
After all the flack theism is rightfully getting for the suffering it causes the Pope fires back. Saying that atheism has lead to the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" He goes on to talk about Marxism, and it's Marx's dogma that cuased suffering not his atheism. Religious Dogma, Political dogma causing the greatest from of cruelty and violations of justice. Yup. "A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God," Well duh pope, you ever think that because there isn't a good God? Everything I see can't be bad because of God, so it must be atheists. "It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," he wrote. "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope." Terrible. abc news [/ QUOTE ] What do you expect? Seriously.
|
|
#10
12-01-2007, 04:17 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.
[ QUOTE ]
"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," [/ QUOTE ] And as a former Nazi, he knows from whence he speaks.
|
 |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
