Mucking hand at showdown

keith1174 · #1 07-17-2007, 07:25 PM

This past weekend we had a situation in our game. 2 players to the river and the player 1 bet and was called by player 2. Player 1 immediately mucked his cards but they did not hit the dead cards on the table. Player 1 asked player 2 what you have 2 pair. Player 2 refused to show his cards and player 1 was upset because no hand was shown to win the pot. Eventually he showed A high. Player 1 insisted that p2 had to show cards because p1 mucked his cards. Is there any type of ruling that says they have to show their cards because the other player mucked his cards. In my opinion the mucked hand is dead and he forfeited the hand, so it is over. Is that correct?

pfapfap · #2 07-17-2007, 09:09 PM

First off, everybody gets a kick in the nuts.

Ask p1 who gets the pot if p2 doesn't show. He'll probalby say it's split or people get their bets back or something. Then ask him what happens if, on the flop, one player bets and the other folds. Does the bettor have to show to win? What if someone just decides to fold to no bet. Does the remaining player have to show to win?

Last remaining live hand wins the pot, period.

However, who gives a crap? Show your hand, move on. This isn't television, nobody is studying your master play, get over yourselves. While p2 doesn't need to show to claim the pot, the house may honor "I Want To See That Hand", in which case p2 would have to show, since there was a showdown. Of course, this particular case goes completely against the intention of IWTSTH to an absurd degree, and I personally don't feel IWTSTH should be in any home game.

Lottery Larry · #3 07-17-2007, 10:01 PM

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First off, everybody gets a kick in the nuts.

, and I personally don't feel IWTSTH should be in any home game.

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I pretty much agree with you

KampfHase · #4 07-18-2007, 08:16 AM

Some excerpts (random order) from Robert's Rules of Poker (Version 10) that you might want to consider:

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2. Cards thrown into the in the center of the table may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

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5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

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If there was a dispute about who has the right to see what from whom, and so on.

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9. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot. (The rule for tournament play is you must retain your hand and show it if asked, in order to win part of the pot.)

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If Player 1 actually wanted to play the board by throwing his cards away... what I doupt.

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1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or raise .
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet ).

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That simple.

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1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

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Player 1 didn't show any of his cards and is therefore not entitled to win any part of the pot.

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2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared.

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Khabbi · #5 07-18-2007, 09:44 AM

p1 got called. Why doesn't he haven to show his cards, then he'll get to see p2's cards?

Just kick p1 in the nuts twice: once for not showing a called hand at showdown and then again for demanding to see p2's hand without any basis for the argument.

Precept2 · #6 07-18-2007, 12:31 PM

A third time for attempting to claim the pot (or a portion of it).

PantsOnFire · #7 07-18-2007, 01:54 PM

The basic tenet of all poker is bet, call, show, then show better or muck. Player 1 wants bet, call, muck, show.

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Player 1 insisted that p2 had to show cards because p1 mucked his cards.

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Please get Player 1 to find that rule. I am willing to bet a moderate amount of cash that somebody pulled this on him and he showed and he now thinks it's a rule.

If I'm Player 2 here, my first responsibility is to hold onto my cards. My second responsibility is the collect the pot while still holding my.

After that is done, depending on several factors, I might go different ways with this one. I could just show and move on. I might persue why player 1 feels this way. Does he think it's a proper rule or is he being a dick. Maybe I'd ask other players what they would do here. Maybe I'd lose it. Anyways, that's totally situation dependent. If a poker player can be "fixed", Player 1 might be a good candidate for a lecture by all the other players hopefully.

Small Fry · #8 07-18-2007, 04:18 PM

If a hand is called on the river it can be requested to be shown by any player originally dealt into the hand. Check point #5 in the quotes by Kampfhase back a few posts.

So player A bet, Player B called. Player A then folds. Any player at the table can ask to see player B's hand. It's a called hand technically. This is different than if one of the players made a bet / raise that was not called. In that case there is no showdown.

Personally I probably wouldn't have made player B show his hand and would have told player A if he wanted to know what is was so badly to table his hand, forcing player B to table his hand if he wants to win. I really don't understand player A's action here. He obviously conceeded the hand and that he was bluffing so what's it really matter what B had. If B actually has a worse hand is he going to try to get his back from the muck to declare victory?

Colima420 · #9 07-18-2007, 06:31 PM

When player 2 calls, then player 1 has to either show or muck first.

If player 1 shows, then:
a)Player two can show and the best hand wins, or
b)Player two mucks and player 1 wins

If player 1 mucks, then:
player 2 wins without having to show his hand.

Basically, once player 1 is called, he has to either muck or show. If he doesn't want to show and mucks, then player 2 wins the hand.

Colima420

PantsOnFire · #10 07-19-2007, 09:58 AM

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p1 got called. Why doesn't he haven to show his cards, then he'll get to see p2's cards?

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You can muck your hand facedown at any time and give up the pot. It happens all the time when a guy makes a big bluff on the river and gets called. He craps his pants, says nice call and mucks his 8 high face down.

At this point, there is no reason in the world that the caller should have to show his hand. He should just muck and collect the pot. Players who bluff, then muck, then ask to see the other players hand are juveniles.