NL10 - AKs vs 3 calling stations

[MrBump]

This is probably one of the weirdest hands I've played in a while and an example of why it can be so hard playing vs bad players sometimes at these levels. All three villains who called preflop were calling stations. Here are their stats:


BTN: 42/11/0.65
SB: 52/8/0.84
BB: 30/6/0.7

So I was pretty sure my hand was way ahead before the flop. On the flop, villain's .20 bet into a $2.10 pot and call behind was giving me 12-1 pot odds !! ie more than enough for my estimated 6 outs.

On the turn, obviously I was delighted to see the Ace, but still had no idea where I was in the hand with another weak bet and call in front of me. I very nearly raised this turn, but decided the pot was pretty big vs several opponents and I only have one pair so decided to just call and try and see a cheap showdown. On the turn I was getting over 7-1 pot odds to call with my TPTK.

On the river I was quite happy to get the cheap showdown. Weird hand ! Comments ?




Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $9.60
BB: $10.50
UTG: $7.85
UTG+1: $8.15
MP1: $14.60
MP2: $9.90
Hero (MP3): $11.80
CO: $9.30
BTN: $6.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 Players)
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.50</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $0.50, SB calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40, MP2 folds

Flop: ($2.10) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.20</font>, BB calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, BTN calls $0.20

Turn: ($2.90) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.50</font>, BB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

River: ($4.90) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.40</font>, BB calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, BTN folds

Pot Size: $6.10 ($0.25 Rake)

[Specialwon]

Unfortunately it looks from the post flop action as though you too are a calling station. Why did you not raise up at some point? Like when the A hit. You would then have known where you were.

Playing calling stations should be quite straightforward. If you have a hand, bet it big. If not, fold. Here you pick up a nice hand on the turn but you continue to just drift along with the rest of them, so its not surprising you had no idea where you stood at the end and you were too scared to make a value bet on the river.

By not raising the turn, you give an extremely cheap river card to all of those other guys who may make 2 pair or trips or god knows what.

What you should have done is make a big bet so that they no longer have drawing odds. Had you raised up to, say, $3, most either give up (in this instance that gets rid of anyone with a 5 in his hand) or they are forced to pay big to see the river, in which case usually you will win anyway, only you will win a lot more money.

Calling stations often call when they shouldn't. So, manipulate the pot odds so that they shouldn't call and let their tendencies do the rest.

Occasionally some idiot will still call and maybe fluke a win against you on the river. Occasionally someone has AQ or similar which he played terribly and you will lose. But worrying about those chances is like never crossing the road for fear of being hit by a car.

[MrBump]

Thanks for the comments.

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you not raise up at some point? Like when the A hit. You would then have known where you were.


[/ QUOTE ]

For 2 reasons:
1) I have just TPTK in a biggish multiway pot. My hand is not that strong and I cannot call if I get rearaised behind. I decided on the turn, I wanted to try and get a cheap showdown with a hand that certainly had showdown value.

2)To get maximum value - What hands are going to call a raise on the turn ? Answer - AQ, A3, A5, Q5, Q3, and any set obviously. And what hands are going to fold? Answer any single pair lower than mine or worse. So a raise here is pretty -EV IMO

[Specialwon]

You are ignoring your reads, these guys are calling stations, which means that they call whether or not they have a hand that beats you.

[Aviston]

[ QUOTE ]

1) I have just TPTK in a biggish multiway pot. My hand is not that strong and I cannot call if I get rearaised behind. I decided on the turn, I wanted to try and get a cheap showdown with a hand that certainly had showdown value.

2)To get maximum value - What hands are going to call a raise on the turn ? Answer - AQ, A3, A5, Q5, Q3, and any set obviously. And what hands are going to fold? Answer any single pair lower than mine or worse. So a raise here is pretty -EV IMO

[/ QUOTE ]
It's true that you cannot call if reraised; these are passive calling stations and if they raise then you know you're beat and can safely fold. Getting to a cheap showdown against tricky, aggressive, good players is fine with TPTK but against calling stations you need to value bet, value bet, and value bet.

The correct play is to raise large on the turn. You'll most likely fold the button, gaining you position. You'll also protect your hand, gain value from it, and define it all in one bet. True, you might fold everyone, but if a single player calls your raise you'll make more than if everyone calls a weak bet on the river. Assuming you get a call, and are checked to on the river, you can then decide, on your terms, whether or not you want a cheap showdown (and check behind) or whether or not your hand is strong enough to value bet. With this board, I'm value betting all day long; these guys will call you with Qx and weaker Ax (and a myriad of other holdings). Every now and then, they'll have a real hand against you, but in the long run, you make money off of calling stations by being aggressive and betting your good hands.

[PokerFun007]

Another factor is limiting the field of opponents. We want to be against ONE player with this hand. Raise the turn as mentioned and that objective will most likely be met. As played, we permit some lame to call down (correctly!!!) with a random 5 and hit trips...not a good thing.

[MrBump]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1) I have just TPTK in a biggish multiway pot. My hand is not that strong and I cannot call if I get rearaised behind. I decided on the turn, I wanted to try and get a cheap showdown with a hand that certainly had showdown value.

2)To get maximum value - What hands are going to call a raise on the turn ? Answer - AQ, A3, A5, Q5, Q3, and any set obviously. And what hands are going to fold? Answer any single pair lower than mine or worse. So a raise here is pretty -EV IMO

[/ QUOTE ]
It's true that you cannot call if reraised; these are passive calling stations and if they raise then you know you're beat and can safely fold. Getting to a cheap showdown against tricky, aggressive, good players is fine with TPTK but against calling stations you need to value bet, value bet, and value bet.

The correct play is to raise large on the turn. You'll most likely fold the button, gaining you position. You'll also protect your hand, gain value from it, and define it all in one bet. True, you might fold everyone, but if a single player calls your raise you'll make more than if everyone calls a weak bet on the river. Assuming you get a call....

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get a call, I am beat, it's as simple as that, and now I am beat in a large pot with just a single pair.

Someone else mentioned I should raise with AKo to get it heads up. Well that's what I did preflop and 3 decided to come along for the flop. Not much I can do about it, but to raise again vs 3 villains who could have any 2 cards just to narrow the field is a leak IMO

Am I the only one who thinks applying pot control is the right move with just TPTK in a biggish 3-way pot ?

[Kornspitz]

1. You have a very good chance that you are ahead. That's a reason for raising.
2. You're playing against 3 opponents, so chances are high someone is drawing here. That's a strong reason for raising.
3. You're playing against calling stations. So if you're really ahead, you can extract ALOT of value here. That's an incredibly strong reason for raising.

You must raise that turn. Pot control makes sense, if someone shows strength, and you don't want to take it to a "stack against stack". But that's not the case here.

[MrBump]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Plenty to take on board.

[Damntra]

[ QUOTE ]


Am I the only one who thinks applying pot control is the right move with just TPTK in a biggish 3-way pot ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Raise the turn for all the reasons stated.