Steve Badger's advice

[holdemsucks]

On a previous discussion I replied talking about position in this game. Everyone seemed to be debating against me and Steve Badger, ever since I referred to http://www.playwinningpoker.com/omaha/pot-limit/
I have been playing on PartyPoker starting with $5000 play money and now I have around $120 000 on my account play money. A lot of my decisions are based on what Badger says. However, one person replied to me saying that his advice was silly, wrong, misleading etc; It certainly has not mislead me. By the way, the reason I'm starting a new discussion on this is because this made the other discussion totally off topic when by the starter was asking out flop and turn play and not nearly as much on pre-flop starting hands.

[chucky]

I am not going to focus on this too much, but expect to get plenty of comments that focus on how you are playing with play money not real dollars. The article you are referencing is focused much more on a game that is several hundred BB deep, where the implied odds against hero of playing every street OOP are taken to the extreme.

In the article you linked, Steve Badgeer states:

"If the chips are deep you should be limp/fold almost everything. The main reason to play hands out of position in PLO is to encourage other people to play out of position. That is really and truly the main reason. You want to limp and fold, while they limp and call your raises when you are in position."

Steve Badger never defines "deep" but I assume it is at least 200 BB. If you limp fold from EP against aggressive players in a deep stack format, hero will never get a chance to outplay the aggressive players with a variety of weak leads, check/raises and check/call + check raise or bet combination moves that can take advantage of the other players' aggression to create relative positional advantage.

"If the chips are deep you should be limp/fold almost everything." When holdemsucks posted that folding aa83 ss was the correct play when faced with one preflop raise he misapplied this part of the article. Suited aces represent an elite section of starting hands. If you limp/call with them from EP you will have hidden the nature of you hand, and created the opportunity to play advantageous flops in relative position to the aggressor. Deep stack scenarios may be even more advantageous by encouraging the late position aggressor to take multiple shots at the pot, thereby allowing hero to more effectively trap with strong hands.

[iggymcfly]

The problem with Steve Badger's advice is that it implies that it's basically impossible to win money from early position. Yet almost every winning player on this forum will tell you that they win money from EP. Therefore, his advice is wrong. It's not even debatable, it's that simple.

[thisnamedoesntfi]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with Steve Badger's advice is that it implies that it's basically impossible to win money from early position. Yet almost every winning player on this forum will tell you that they win money from EP. Therefore, his advice is wrong. It's not even debatable, it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly, I'm not a huge winner by any means but the only spot I'm losing from is the BB, and clearly that is less position related than forced to pip.

Omaha is not like real estate, position, position, position.


[ QUOTE ]

But again, PLO is position and betting. A solid player who understands the game and has deep chips, can play 3579 in position and eat up AAKK, while also play AAKK in position to eat up 3579.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if the guy that has AAKK doesn't understand the game.

[pete fabrizio]

a solid player who understands the game and has deep chips will eat up anybody from any position with AAKK.

[pete fabrizio]

My life at 6-max:

[holdemsucks]

[ QUOTE ]
a solid player who understands the game and has deep chips will eat up anybody from any position with AAKK.

[/ QUOTE ] Not if Pete Fabrizio is up against me. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[holdemsucks]

[ QUOTE ]
Omaha is not like real estate, position, position, position.

[/ QUOTE ] Position in PLO is much more important than in another poker game not discussed in the Other Poker Games forum, regardless of your stats.

[holdemsucks]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with Steve Badger's advice is that it implies that it's basically impossible to win money from early position.

[/ QUOTE ] In the article he tells people to limp-re-raise in early position with AAxx. Any sensible player would figure out that AAxx would have to win a lot of the time in order to justify re-raising someone. Therefore it is possible to win out of position.

[ QUOTE ]
It's not even debatable, it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is not even that simple, it IS debatable.

[chucky]

The problem with playing only aaxx for a reraise in ep is that your opponents will abuse you. For instance in 6-max:

hero limps (2.5 bb pot), mp limps (3.5 BB), button pots (9 bb), hero repots (27 BB pot), mp folds... button can either call with wraps and double pairs with position or he can fold weak kk/qq type hands that dont fare well. Even if villian calls it is 13.5 BB more to call. This means that only 18 BB are commited preflop, which means hero still needs to play a pot OOP without automatic stack scenario.