AQ, very tough hand, what line?

[QuadLaser]

I make AQ my line in the sand for flatting/3-betting out of the blinds, depending on the orig. PFR's stats. With no stats I default to flatting like you did. You should def. lead this flop 3-way since its highly unlikely that the PFR will c-bet a multi-way A high flop w/out an ace (unless he is aggro, and again you have no read). Leading the flop, checking the turn and v-betting the river is a good line. If raised on the flop you need to call, I generally c/c the turn against and unknown and c/f the river if he continues betting and I don't improve.

[Up-grey-de]

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop, if people insta fold A hi boards then raise more and c bet every a hi board possible, you'll make more over time doing that. But, people do not insta muck A hi boards so bet and try to have money only go in on 2 streets.


Given how you've played this I don't see how you can fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt say that people always fold on a A high board, I said that he will fold a worse hand than my AQ, and I will have gained no value.
I would have shown a lot of strength by betting into 2 people here, which will make them take my bet more seriously and increase the chances/risks of a fold.
Plus I have never played a single hand with any of them earlier, so it was harder then usual to guess their range, and I didnt know what kind of players they were so I took the "safe" line and just c/c.

Anybody like a c/r here? I dont think that it´s a bad idea at all. Would make the hand easier to play.

[Up-grey-de]

[ QUOTE ]
I make AQ my line in the sand for flatting/3-betting out of the blinds, depending on the orig. PFR's stats. With no stats I default to flatting like you did. You should def. lead this flop 3-way since its highly unlikely that the PFR will c-bet a multi-way A high flop w/out an ace (unless he is aggro, and again you have no read). Leading the flop, checking the turn and v-betting the river is a good line. If raised on the flop you need to call, I generally c/c the turn against and unknown and c/f the river if he continues betting and I don't improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I lead flop and get raised, c/c turn, I would have put around 50-60BB into the pot on the river and then fold.

[bilbo-san]

Mucho, mucho bad advice in this thread.

I usually RR pre-flop. Sometimes I call. Rarely fold. Blindly stating that not re-raising is always bad is simply wrong.

Further, saying no one calls a c/r with a worse hand is lol. Nobody folds an Ace to a flop c/r. People don't fold top pair.

I don't mind a call on the flop either.

The turn is a pretty bad card for you and I can see folding.

But since you called, folding the river would be heavily compounding your mistake (if it was one) on the turn. He's not checking behind with any ace given the stacks, and he'll bluff KQ/QJ/JT/KJ etc often enough that you are good here 40% of the time. folding for $70 on this river would be disastrously stupid.

[TRD23]

bilbo can you just expand on why the turn is a bad card?

[nazahl]

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(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because by simply flatting pre you reduce yourself to basically playing fit-or-fold postflop. If we had position we would have an additional way to win: by judging the opponent's range and leveraging our position when he is weak. But since we are OOP and flatted, that option is gone. Now he is the one with positional advantage, and we will forever be at his mercy. If we flop nothing (which we will 67% of the time) we'll have to just fold to his CB. If we flop something, bet, and are raised, now we're in a very difficult spot because he is telling us he can beat TP. Since the pot is large we'll have a hard time folding, but every time we call we light another $100 bill on fire. Pushing is even worse because it is nothing more than a bluff.

Its much better to either take the initiative yourself by 3betting pre, or just avoiding the situation completely by folding. There is no shame in folding, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what, it just seems way to contradictory to make any sense. you have a hand that is worthy of 3betting in the situation described, yet you'd rather fold it than just call. wtf? that makes no sense.

its okay to call preflop and then just c/f the flop if we whiff. flatting preflop gives you options to get away from tpgk if villain doesnt lay off on the turn/river rather than just committing ourselves pf to getting AI on the flop every time we catch a piece.

im not saying that i totally disagree w/ your post. im just saying that it doesnt make sense to have a hand that you're willing to 3bet with but want to fold rather than call.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
bilbo can you just expand on why the turn is a bad card?

[/ QUOTE ]

a) If villain raised pre-flop with a suited connector hand, this hits a lot of it hard. Hands like T9, J9, 97, 87, T8, 98, etc all improved; there are now going to be a TON of messy river cards (remember that at the turn decision point you didn't know that the river would be so good), and you have to expect villain to bet a lot of rivers, and you will like very few of them. This is what we refer to as the "spiked hammer of position". If your hand is good, you not only have to worry about the $50 now, but also the push on the river. Villain, on the other hand, has the option of checking behind with his moderate hands (A2, for example) if the river blanks, but bet if he improves to two pair or makes a straight, etc. He's risking $50, you are risking your stack.

b) Furthermore, it's a hand that should make villain slow down sometimes because it could hit YOU really hard. Yet he's betting, and quite strong. Hmmmm.

[Up-grey-de]

Bilbo-san, loved your analysis.
Thought it was very good in every sort of way. I do agree that this is mostly a 3-bet preflop, but it seems like a lot of people miss the fact that it was my absolut first hand with these guys, just switched site.
Therefore I chose to just call and to hopefully keep the pot smaller since I´m OOP.

But, my question to you bilbo-san (and anyone else of course) is, as played, do you think that c/c flop is the best line?
Do you think a c/r can be good without any/few reads in this situation?
Do you see any reason to lead flop?

As played, you would fold turn?

[deaders]

calling preflop is totally fine, especially against an unknown. Once you get to the river you cant ever fold.

[Up-grey-de]

Yeah, forgot to admit that even thinking about folding river is wrong, eventhough I had a pretty strong feeling that I was beat.