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#41
11-12-2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
why are we so certain that calling with TT is +ev for him when we also just call JJ+ pf?
we shove Qx, we shove JJ+, we shove sets, not a lot of suited connectors that flopped a pair in our range for him to beat the reason he's exploitable is because he cbets too much, not because he folds TT imho 
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#42
11-12-2007, 11:30 PM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
My mind is going to explode.
Yes, having 65 has better equity against any perceived calling range; however, it has no correlation to the fact that pushing 88 is +EV. I don't know how you want me to explain this. Yes, his calling range is part of the equation; however, light 3 bettors generally spew hardcore postflop. If he's 3 betting insanely light, and cbetting most any flop shoving any 2 is +EV because he's bet/folding air so often. His calling range is only important IF YOU ARE CALLED; however, he's going to be folding so often the difference is equity of 88 v 65s isn't going to cause pushing this flop to go from +EV to -EV. Again, I would prefer to have top set every single hand. Theoretically there are of course better hands to shove the flop here with that have better equity against his calling range (like top set for example), but unfortunately we don't get to choose our hand in every situation in poker.
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#43
11-12-2007, 11:48 PM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i'd rather have 65s but i don't hate it especially because without history he'll pbb fold TT-JJ [/ QUOTE ] 88>65s [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] lol WRONG.
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#44
11-12-2007, 11:49 PM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
Barrin, call flop. IF u call turn or not is entirely 100% read/image/game flow based. Pushing the flop is just bad because there are only 3 better hands that MIGHT fold
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#45
11-12-2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
[ QUOTE ]
My mind is going to explode. Yes, having 65 has better equity against any perceived calling range; however, it has no correlation to the fact that pushing 88 is +EV. I don't know how you want me to explain this. Yes, his calling range is part of the equation; however, light 3 bettors generally spew hardcore postflop. If he's 3 betting insanely light, and cbetting most any flop shoving any 2 is +EV because he's bet/folding air so often. His calling range is only important IF YOU ARE CALLED; however, he's going to be folding so often the difference is equity of 88 v 65s isn't going to cause pushing this flop to go from +EV to -EV. Again, I would prefer to have top set every single hand. Theoretically there are of course better hands to shove the flop here with that have better equity against his calling range (like top set for example), but unfortunately we don't get to choose our hand in every situation in poker. [/ QUOTE ] fonkey, you're are probably right that pushing 88 is +ev, HOWEVER, calling with 88 here is MORE +ev. Also, pushing 65 is more +ev then calling with it because there are more better hands u fold out, and you have better equity when called.
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#46
11-13-2007, 10:59 AM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My mind is going to explode. Yes, having 65 has better equity against any perceived calling range; however, it has no correlation to the fact that pushing 88 is +EV. I don't know how you want me to explain this. Yes, his calling range is part of the equation; however, light 3 bettors generally spew hardcore postflop. If he's 3 betting insanely light, and cbetting most any flop shoving any 2 is +EV because he's bet/folding air so often. His calling range is only important IF YOU ARE CALLED; however, he's going to be folding so often the difference is equity of 88 v 65s isn't going to cause pushing this flop to go from +EV to -EV. Again, I would prefer to have top set every single hand. Theoretically there are of course better hands to shove the flop here with that have better equity against his calling range (like top set for example), but unfortunately we don't get to choose our hand in every situation in poker. [/ QUOTE ] fonkey, you're are probably right that pushing 88 is +ev, HOWEVER, calling with 88 here is MORE +ev. Also, pushing 65 is more +ev then calling with it because there are more better hands u fold out, and you have better equity when called. [/ QUOTE ] Read my other posts. I was willing to debate the merits of calling versus pushing. I was just flipping out at the people that were pokerstoving and obsessing over his calling range. I also prefer a flop call [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] But pushing is +EV is as well edit I don't get your last point the only hands in between 65 and 88 are 6/x>5 and pocket 7's
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#48
11-14-2007, 09:48 AM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
Bump because this has some really good discussion.
Results?
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#49
11-14-2007, 10:53 AM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
He posted results, but I will post this hand from my POV, because I would like to discuss the merits of my play. I run like 23/20/3.75 and i have villain at 23/21/5.5 over like 850 hands. I do 3bet a decent amount, especially to LP raisers, and so I expect to get floated a decent amount. i thought I could get him to fold 88-JJ a decent pct of the time and if not, well, i expect to have a decent number of outs. But, what does SSNL think?
Full Tilt Poker No Limit Holdem Ring game Blinds: $1/$2 6 players Converter Stack sizes: UTG: $98 UTG+1: $199.55 CO: $432.30 Button: $219.15 SB: $195 Hero: $208 Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $7</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $25</font>, Button calls. Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($51, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $38</font>, Button calls. Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($127, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $85</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $156.15</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $60</font>. Uncalled bets: $11.15 returned to Button. River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($417, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $417) Results: Final pot: $417
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#50
11-14-2007, 11:32 AM
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Re: Playing against a light 3 bettor
[ QUOTE ]
He posted results, but I will post this hand from my POV, because I would like to discuss the merits of my play. I run like 23/20/3.75 and i have villain at 23/21/5.5 over like 850 hands. I do 3bet a decent amount, especially to LP raisers, and so I expect to get floated a decent amount. i thought I could get him to fold 88-JJ a decent pct of the time and if not, well, i expect to have a decent number of outs. But, what does SSNL think? Full Tilt Poker No Limit Holdem Ring game Blinds: $1/$2 6 players Converter Stack sizes: UTG: $98 UTG+1: $199.55 CO: $432.30 Button: $219.15 SB: $195 Hero: $208 Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $7</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $25</font>, Button calls. Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($51, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $38</font>, Button calls. Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($127, 2 players) <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $85</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $156.15</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $60</font>. Uncalled bets: $11.15 returned to Button. River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($417, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $417) Results: Final pot: $417 [/ QUOTE ] If you were planning on calling the last 60, why not just shove the turn for maximum FE ?
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