Complaint about Israel thread

[andyfox]

Not when later on in the same post he advocates the "dumping" of all the Arabs in Israel.

[andyfox]

I'm not whining, I'm pointing out that that post was a disgrace because the poster advocated ethnic cleansing and called Arabs lying scumbags.

[BluffTHIS!]

andy,

Notice that you are implicitly articulating a principle here which is that the morally superior victor in a war (if one is) cannot as a price/punishment/result of winning such a war, force the vanquished to leave a certain territory that has been captured. Such a forced depopulation is not "ethnic cleansing" since that implies killing them (genocide). So I think you have to justify that principle.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
andy,

Notice that you are implicitly articulating a principle here which is that the morally superior victor in a war (if one is) cannot as a price/punishment/result of winning such a war, force the vanquished to leave a certain territory that has been captured. Such a forced depopulation is not "ethnic cleansing" since that implies killing them (genocide). So I think you have to justify that principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ethnic cleansing is EXACTLY what Felix was advocating. I think you just don't understand what the term means, as it is much broader than genocide.

I don't think andy really needs to justify his opposition to ethnic cleansing either, as mass deportation is a textbook example of crimes against humanity.

And andy is of course right that Felix's post is thoroughly shameful and appalling.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
andy,

Notice that you are implicitly articulating a principle here which is that the morally superior victor in a war (if one is) cannot as a price/punishment/result of winning such a war, force the vanquished to leave a certain territory that has been captured. Such a forced depopulation is not "ethnic cleansing" since that implies killing them (genocide). So I think you have to justify that principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ethnic cleansing is EXACTLY what Felix was advocating. I think you just don't understand what the term means, as it is much broader than genocide.

I don't think andy really needs to justify his opposition to ethnic cleansing either, as mass deportation is a textbook example of crimes against humanity.

And andy is of course right that Felix's post is thoroughly shameful and appalling.

[/ QUOTE ]


It is nonetheless obvious that "ethnic cleansing" has the connotation of genocide. And precisely because of its emotionally charged nature it shouldn't be casually used when referring to "mass deportation" when such doesn't involve killing or virtual killing (deportation to a desert without supplies e.g.).

[andyfox]

From Wikipedia:

Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an "undesirable" population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these.

I'm not implicitly articulating anything here. I'm saying the post in question was a disgrace because it called Arabs lying sacks of crap and because it advocates the transfer (or, as he put it, the "dumping" of the native Palestinians who still reside in Israel.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
From Wikipedia:

Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an "undesirable" population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these.

I'm not implicitly articulating anything here. I'm saying the post in question was a disgrace because it called Arabs lying sacks of crap and because it advocates the transfer (or, as he put it, the "dumping" of the native Palestinians who still reside in Israel.

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That's the denotation. However it has a much wider connotation which is why I objected to the term "ethnic cleansing" being made equivalent to the action of forced removal that doesn't involve/forsee killing.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Felix started his original post with :

1.The Arab leaders don't want peace.
2.The Arabs are lying sacks of crap.

In point 1, he is referring to Arab leaders. In point 2, he says "Arabs." I read this as all Arabs.

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Responding to this separately I would say he means those Arab leaders who have lied, and any Arabs who support/assert such lies. If that happens to be a majority of Arabs, then that's just an unpleasant reality to those who think that an entire culture/population/country can't be wrong in some particulars.

[BluffTHIS!]

I just want to add that if some here think that because of the potentially inflammatory nature of attacking the beliefs and actions of a particular group of people who happen to belong to the same race or culture, that a poster should define terms better, then I'm OK with that as long as we can have a predefined such list for the sake of brevity.

For example, if I or Felix say "Arabs", we are referring to any and all Arabs who either a) commit terrorist actions, b) support and/or aid such perpetrators, c) sit idly by while there fellows do such.

Now personally that is why I use the term "extremist moslems" and others use "islamofascists". So if you want to say such clearer but still concise terms should be used instead of generic terms like "Arabs", I am OK with that *as long as* YOU don't get to define for ME the conditions of asserting someone is a member of such a class.

[andyfox]

He said Arabs are lying sacks of crap. Then he said that Israel should be ethnically cleansed of them.

2+2=4.