another bad river bet-call

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked because I was going to check fold. While he waited to bet, I changed my mind and basically was ready to click raise as soon as he bet. If my raise would end up being delayed after his bet, I would have just folded. So maybe he owned me by waiting a little to bet. I don't think he had an easy time calling because he tanked for like 10 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. For some reson I thought you had a monster not a bluff.

Anyways I dont think its good to bet/call this river against you or any other good SSSH poster.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate my river play even though I don't like your river bet. I say I don't like it because I won't bluff raise here nearly often enough for you to want to induce it. I don't expect you to ever be bluffing on the river, so I would never check call a made hand instead of betting. So, I'm (pretty much always) just check folding worse hands or check raising better hands, mixed in with a check raise bluff maybe like 1/20 times (which should be 0/20 times)

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I checked because I was going to check fold. While he waited to bet, I changed my mind and basically was ready to click raise as soon as he bet. If my raise would end up being delayed after his bet, I would have just folded. So maybe he owned me by waiting a little to bet. I don't think he had an easy time calling because he tanked for like 10 seconds.


[/ QUOTE ]
7 seconds kicking myself, 2.9 seconds thinking about a couple of recent posts and 0.1 seconds thinking that my play seems so horrible (even to me) that maybe you wouldn't expect me to bet and so wouldn't go for a value check-raise so it must be a bluff.

gehrig - [ QUOTE ]
milesdyson tags cc the river with worse hands all the time how is someone supposed to know that u specifically wont

[/ QUOTE ]I'm pretty sure I do know Miles won't pay off enough, so (now) I think I should check.

plain dumb luck in the end.

chez

[MacGuyV]

I think the average hand he's peeling w/ on the flop is like 76 so i don't have a problem w/ the turn bet.
River yeah check.

[thepizzlefosho]

I feel like this is becoming groupthink. although I've never played with Miles, and I think he is trying to give accurate assupmtions about his play, I don't think you can fold to this check raise.

Checking behind on the river is probably fine, but I guess Miles posts enough abnormal plays (not bad just different opposed to normal TAG play) that I don't think you want to play scared and always check these rivers against him.

so I guess I can agree that checking behind is probably a solid play, but I think bet/call is definitely better than bet/fold.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this is becoming groupthink. although I've never played with Miles, and I think he is trying to give accurate assupmtions about his play, I don't think you can fold to this check raise.

Checking behind on the river is probably fine, but I guess Miles posts enough abnormal plays (not bad just different opposed to normal TAG play) that I don't think you want to play scared and always check these rivers against him.

so I guess I can agree that checking behind is probably a solid play, but I think bet/call is definitely better than bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone's said bet-fold is good (Miles has a go at the call but I think its mainly the bet bit he hates) and from what I've seen of Miles play I'm not at all convinced I should fold (leaning more towards it being an easier call than I made) but although we've played a fair bit its hardly a common scenario.

but its a horrible spot to put myself in.

chez

[sethypooh21]

Against a LAGTAG, I check behind this river 100% - also, I think the turn bet is a leak - one that I have against thinking opponents as well - against Miles (or similar), I have to think that check-turn, call river UI is +EV here. Or maybe that's just because I've been getting pwned lately by getting CR'ed by ~KQ on this board, and whiffing the river and folding...

[jstill]

I bet this turn a ton vs standard villains it has alot of value vs worse drawing hands and gets a freeshowdown over 90% of the time. I mite not bet against a player I thought was really tricky or really aggro who i didnt mind checking behind and calling a blank river with an UI A hi tho (which miles does fall into the category of).

I bet this river against most crappy players becuz they ck call a ton of [censored] hands they should either bet fold or ck fold. Vs miles after he cr'd the turn I think Id ck behind and pass up some really thin perhaps non existent value (esp vs him since hes not ck calling Tx here very often). So when he cks its probably a missed draw hes folding or some oddly played PP hes now folding to ur bet, or hes sexying or u risk the cr bluff.

After u bet I think its a fold since he couldnt have been semi-bluffing the turn with AhXh (since u got it) and then check-raising some hand that u split with. I think if he was bluffing 87 or a worse fd hed be more apt to lead the river than check-raise bluff since u ck behind weak pairs u mite fold to a lead (or better drawing hands) and usually only vb hands u wont fold ( im guessing he has the read u dont like to fold for one bet vs showing down esp vs someone like him).

Calling isnt horrible tho (10:1 probably isnt enough to be +EV but its a small mistake at worst), its either nuts or nothin as gehrig said and from what I can tell Miles does get pretty wacky altho ive never played with him.

[Heisenb3rg]

You should have been more specific, on the LAGTAG.

Against a 2+2er who knows your a 2+2er AND is capable of pulling moves, bet/call all day. He's wayyyyy more likely to be afraid of the A than he is going for a double c/r.

Why not mix up your play? By checking behind KK/QQ/JJ/9x/Tx here and betting some missed draws like QJ, Hearts as well as aces.. You get the best of both worlds.

You get payed off with your A's or you fold the best hand with your draws.
If he's got trip 5's he's gaining no bets every time you have KK/QQ/JJ/Tx/9x which you probabily have close to as often if not more often than a pair of aces.

Now compare this to when you check all of your hands.
He now has a clear bet with trip 5's, and a clear check with Tx, 9x. You let him outplay you by checking your aces here.


Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

The turn I disagree with all of you looking at this from just this hand alone.

But how Ax of hearts fits into your gameplan I believe is pretty inconsequential.. As long as you are betting this turn with good hands/draws/ace high. Sometimes checking the turn with draws/ace high... Then your good.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have been more specific, on the LAGTAG.

Against a 2+2er who knows your a 2+2er AND is capable of pulling moves, call all day.

IE myles dyson

[/ QUOTE ]IMO, this is also a good argument for checking behind the turn.

[milesdyson]

In an FTOP sense I really am going to own the crap out of ace high when you bet the turn HU against me (unless you have the sack to 3-bet me). That doesn't mean I think he misplayed it, because if he checks I'm getting a free card with a billion straight draw hands. Basically what I'm saying is you are only ever putting in two bets with the worst of it by bet/calling ace high. I just don't think there's any real solution to it, though.