I lie and feel very good

[vhawk01]

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Your situation is a lot lighter, but do you think your lie is without consequence, and without harm? Your benefit comes from nowhere, and hurts no one?

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I think all the consequence of that lie are good.

chez

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So they have that policy for absolutely no reason whatsoever? I'm not saying you are wrong, it is hard for me to imagine a situation where no harm comes from a lie, but I don't know that its impossible.

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have you ever dealt with helpdesks??? Its always possible that a lie can result in harm but its expected results that should concern us.

lies can be very good. Do you know were the [insert race here] children are hidden? asks the racial cleansing police.

chez

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That objection to Kant was never very convincing to me. So, you lie, they find out, and now they just shoot everyone without asking, rather than bother asking you where the little Jewish girl is. The idea is that their motives are to kill her, and that is what is wrong. You aren't aiding them by telling them where she is, you are sentencing to death the next family who really ISN'T hiding a little Jewish girl.

I think my main position on this is that lying can never be the BEST solution, but perhaps it is possible it is not the worst solution. The best solution in the OP is probably impractical, so perhaps the lie is better than nothing.

[vhawk01]

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vhawk01,

I routinely lie a little bit to students. You don't want them to be overconfident in their abilities because that can set them up for a disastrous fall. But you don't want them so discouraged that they fail to make the actual progress they really are capable of. I find it best to boost their self-confidence just a little bit.

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Like I said, I generally side with Kant, but I understand that it isn't always practical, and can envision conflicts, such as yours. To be the contrarian, I would say that these kids will eventually realize you aren't trustworthy, and your effects will no longer work, and now they won't fully trust you when you ARE being honest.

Of course, I would make the concession that, if someone fully expects and WANTS you to lie to them (do I look fat in this dress?) then it isn't lying in any way. As long as its an implicit or explicit understanding, which may very well be the case with your students.

[chezlaw]

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V,

You've got to be kidding. Why is this even an issue? It was a proper and good lie. Glad the printer problem is fixed.

No harm!

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Ta

I think V can get away from this by noticing that it wasn't really a lie. I didn't deceive anyone or intend to deceive anyone. She knew I wasn't with the printer and knew that I knew and I knew that she knew that she knew ...

chez

[vhawk01]

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V,

You've got to be kidding. Why is this even an issue? It was a proper and good lie. Glad the printer problem is fixed.

No harm!

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Ta

I think V can get away from this by noticing that it wasn't really a lie. I didn't deceive anyone or intend to deceive anyone. She knew I wasn't with the printer and knew that I knew and I knew that she knew that she knew ...

chez

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Yep, I definitely can, and made the same point one post up. However, in this situation, it might be a little different, in that she is now knowingly breaking the rules of her own company, rules that other people are forced to follow.

[chezlaw]

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V,

You've got to be kidding. Why is this even an issue? It was a proper and good lie. Glad the printer problem is fixed.

No harm!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ta

I think V can get away from this by noticing that it wasn't really a lie. I didn't deceive anyone or intend to deceive anyone. She knew I wasn't with the printer and knew that I knew and I knew that she knew that she knew ...

chez

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Yep, I definitely can, and made the same point one post up. However, in this situation, it might be a little different, in that she is now knowingly breaking the rules of her own company, rules that other people are forced to follow.

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She didn't break any rules. I did but claim that kowtowing to morons who make bad rules just encourages them, so for everyones benefit we have a moral duty to break them.

Hopefully she brought it up at some sort of review and just maybe they considered whether a customer calling back with information as requested should be prevented from doing so.

chez

[vhawk01]

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V,

You've got to be kidding. Why is this even an issue? It was a proper and good lie. Glad the printer problem is fixed.

No harm!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ta

I think V can get away from this by noticing that it wasn't really a lie. I didn't deceive anyone or intend to deceive anyone. She knew I wasn't with the printer and knew that I knew and I knew that she knew that she knew ...

chez

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Yep, I definitely can, and made the same point one post up. However, in this situation, it might be a little different, in that she is now knowingly breaking the rules of her own company, rules that other people are forced to follow.

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She didn't break any rules. I did but claim that kowtowing to morons who make bad rules just encourages them, so for everyones benefit we have a moral duty to break them.

Hopefully she brought it up at some sort of review and just maybe they considered whether a customer calling back with information as requested should be prevented from doing so.

chez

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And I did but correct you, that we have a duty to change them or fight to have them changed, and not to break them.

[chezlaw]

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V,

You've got to be kidding. Why is this even an issue? It was a proper and good lie. Glad the printer problem is fixed.

No harm!

[/ QUOTE ]
Ta

I think V can get away from this by noticing that it wasn't really a lie. I didn't deceive anyone or intend to deceive anyone. She knew I wasn't with the printer and knew that I knew and I knew that she knew that she knew ...

chez

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Yep, I definitely can, and made the same point one post up. However, in this situation, it might be a little different, in that she is now knowingly breaking the rules of her own company, rules that other people are forced to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]
She didn't break any rules. I did but claim that kowtowing to morons who make bad rules just encourages them, so for everyones benefit we have a moral duty to break them.

Hopefully she brought it up at some sort of review and just maybe they considered whether a customer calling back with information as requested should be prevented from doing so.

chez

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And I did but correct you, that we have a duty to change them or fight to have them changed, and not to break them.

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and I claim the best (probably only) way to change them is to break them. Hence its our duty to do so.

chez

[chezlaw]

vhawk, I'd also make the claim that these 'rules' have no validity. certainly in this case I never agreed to them, in fact they didn't exist when I bought the printer.

companies, govenments etc make up rules all the time and in the past I've responded by making up my own which always results in fun conversations.

chez

[vhawk01]

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vhawk, I'd also make the claim that these 'rules' have no validity. certainly in this case I never agreed to them, in fact they didn't exist when I bought the printer.

companies, govenments etc make up rules all the time and in the past I've responded by making up my own which always results in fun conversations.

chez

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Ok, then you aren't violating any rule (I never said you were) but this receptionist is, on your behalf, if she knows you are lying, and is being deceived if she doesn't know you are lying.

BTW, I enjoy examples like this, because they aren't emotional and don't carry much baggage. They are a bit silly, and not exactly favorable to my side (not many people find as much honor in refusing to lie to a printer secretary as they do in refusing to lie to evil Saudis) but the points are the same and we can be civil.

[chezlaw]

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vhawk, I'd also make the claim that these 'rules' have no validity. certainly in this case I never agreed to them, in fact they didn't exist when I bought the printer.

companies, govenments etc make up rules all the time and in the past I've responded by making up my own which always results in fun conversations.


chez

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Ok, then you aren't violating any rule (I never said you were) but this receptionist is, on your behalf, if she knows you are lying, and is being deceived if she doesn't know you are lying.

BTW, I enjoy examples like this, because they aren't emotional and don't carry much baggage. They are a bit silly, and not exactly favorable to my side (not many people find as much honor in refusing to lie to a printer secretary as they do in refusing to lie to evil Saudis) but the points are the same and we can be civil.

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but she didn't break any rules, her job was to follow a script which she did. The rules do not require her to think (which is the whole problem).

[Actually I suspect she did break the rules as she was probably mistaken not to put me through in these circumstances, and also probably should have put me through to a supervisor (but that's nothing to do with my 'lie')]

but it seems now that you think I didn't lie or break any rules, very civil of you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] but what did I do wrong?

chez