PNL Study Group Day 4: Commitment

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Matt, Sunny

I'm confused about how to plan in situations where:

1) We are at the commitment threshold
2) We don't want to commit
3) We prob have the best hand
4) Villain has lots of outs


[/ QUOTE ]


tough spot with strong competing concerns. there is no easy answer.

[mvdgaag]

Some questions about commitment decisions and famous poker players' advices and observed plays.

I often see the television pro's in HSP or famous poker players on FT slowplay almost al their hands on the flop and also seldom cbet. After reading PNL I think this is because they do not want to commit with one pair hands and want to keep the pot small... This would probably force them to slowplay bigger hands too, for deception (if you check with nothing and with top pair most often than a bet is going to be suspicious) and also to get their opponents a chance to take a stab/catch a pair.
Am I correct in this analysis or is there an other reason they don't cbet as often as most 2p2ers on low and micro stakes suggest? Maybe they get more value from play on later streets?

Even seasoned pro's on the full tilt forums and in articles often do not seem to give SPR (or stack sizes) as arguments for their decisions when they discuss hands. It seems less important to them than the book seems to suggest. Is there a reason for this? Maybe they think it's too advanced, but really it's quite simple.

[mvdgaag]

I have trouble finding out when to commit. Often I want to commit when the action goes bet/call and I can put the rest in on the next street, but I don't want to commit when the action goes bet/raise. But to find out of he's going to raise I have to cross that treshold by betting. Is it often ok to bet/fold in this case or more often ok to choose not to commit at all. I feel he doesn't have to raise very frequently to damage my expectation drastically here if I plan to fold.

I know this will depend on a lot on my opponent and the recent history and the specific hand/board, etc. I'm looking for a general answer though, not to have to give too many specific examples. In most cases, can I still bet and only commit when he just calls?

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]
but I don't want to commit when the action goes bet/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

hi mvdgaag,

What you're talking about can be okay - so long as you are confident in the fact that your opponent will only raise with a range that beats you. As we mention in one of the exceptions, you can cross the threshold and fold in cases where your opponent has a particular tendency that you are sure of.

-S

[effang]

grunch (will read when i get a chance):

i think this commitment theory isn't applicable to online poker unless you're playing high stakes. the reason for this is that at most games, 100bb is the max and the norm.

this means in an aggressive game (pre and post), any single 3/bet pot is going to reach commitment decisions on the flop.

i raise 4bb, i get 3/bet to 14bb, i call. there is now 30bb in the pot. any bet or call on the flop and i'm now committed. essentially, in any aggressive game, i'm making my 10% commitment decision preflop, rather than post flop.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
grunch (will read when i get a chance):

i think this commitment theory isn't applicable to online poker unless you're playing high stakes. the reason for this is that at most games, 100bb is the max and the norm.

this means in an aggressive game (pre and post), any single 3/bet pot is going to reach commitment decisions on the flop.

i raise 4bb, i get 3/bet to 14bb, i call. there is now 30bb in the pot. any bet or call on the flop and i'm now committed. essentially, in any aggressive game, i'm making my 10% commitment decision preflop, rather than post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this not applicable just because the decision comes early? Keep in mind that having 10% of the effective stacks does not mean you are committed, it simply means that the time has come to make your commitment plan. You can just as easily decide "No, I will not commit and therefore will not put more than 1/3 or my starting stack in the pot unless I am either bluffing, calling a draw with proper odds, or closing the action on the hand". In addition, last time I checked situations in which the effective stacks are greater than 100BB still come up from time to time in online poker, such as when somebody in addition to you has managed to double up since you sat down.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
grunch (will read when i get a chance):

i think this commitment theory isn't applicable to online poker unless you're playing high stakes. the reason for this is that at most games, 100bb is the max and the norm.

this means in an aggressive game (pre and post), any single 3/bet pot is going to reach commitment decisions on the flop.

i raise 4bb, i get 3/bet to 14bb, i call. there is now 30bb in the pot. any bet or call on the flop and i'm now committed. essentially, in any aggressive game, i'm making my 10% commitment decision preflop, rather than post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


this is why the online games are so high variance for the number of players.

it's just a commitment plan. you adapt as the hand plays out and new information comes in. the better you are the more adapting you do. the mistake amateurs make is stuffing 25bb into the pot on the flop then realizing their hand isn't strong enough to get all in. CT is just think before you bet. you are doing it out of habit and so don't benefit from the strong reminder.

[itWASaDREAM]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Ok I'll use a hand example for my question:

Say it's a 50NL game and effective stacks are 50$. You're sitting UTG and raise it up to $2 with QQ. Button who is a tag, is the only one who calls. The pot is now at $5. The flop comes:

TT5 rainbow.

You make a bet of 4$ but BB raises up $12. If you call/raise, you are passed the commitment threshold (as later mentioned in the book). Surely you can't raise because that will only fold out better hands, but many TAGS are known to raise on boards like this as a bluff, or if they have a smaller PP.

How committed are you? In this instance, the flop is where you make your commitment decision right? And if so, how do you proceed while taking into account the stack sizes, the pot size, and the conditions here?

----------------


[/ QUOTE ]

I think with this hand we have to first apply the REM process and then figure if your comitted against his range. against most tags in this spot I would be putting in a third bet, willing to be commited. your ahead if his range, and its a great board for him to bluff because it does not hit the majority of your pf raising range