JJ vs. thac - NL$100

[corsakh]

The problem with this approach is I'd hate him taking a free card with 88d. If I know for a fact he is going to bet this turn, its a different story but as I said I never played him so can not comment on this point. I am just fairly sure we have the best hand, we get called by worse hands, we don't want another diamond to come and a raise from his side can only be a bluff.

c/f

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile what I am interested in, is please explain on how exactly you are going to get more value from cold calling a CO opening preflop with QJs (given CO is your normal 50NL tag) than you otherwise would with 3betting.

Ok, show me please how to get ANY value cold calling with high cards.

You hit a pair. Oh great. You either win a cbet (at most two streets) or loose half your stack to a better hand or a bluff.

You miss the flop completely. Great, just wasted 4 blinds.

You pick some draw. Straights are nonexistant. You can only pick a flush. Maybe something can work out.

How you gonna float with this hand that has no SD value? What flops your gonna reraise that give you outs vs his calling range? I am completely lost to your game plan.




[/ QUOTE ]

B/c your hand is ahead of villain's range and you can play post flop poker in position. I'm not saying 3 betting is bad, but you need to mix in cold calls too. Have any winning player filter their poker tracker stats for times they cold called raises ip with suited connectors and I guarantee they will show a profit.

[ QUOTE ]
Now look back at preflop.

Your hand's face value beats his range.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This is why calling == good. You are ahead of villains opening range but behind his calling range.

[ QUOTE ]
You set up metagame (both for AA and defending the button to steal later yourself).


[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why 3 betting is also fine but you should be mixing in cold calls here too.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
i think its close. with our hand on this board we want our last action to be aggression imo. id rather crai than bet call, because imo our range includes a decent amount of fd's, making it more difficult for him to bluff over the top of us. its sort of a good spot for him to bluff and not a good spot for him to bluff, but i think that a crai is better because we put HIM to the decision and not us.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is crai going to accomplish? You bluff out a queen probably but that is about it. Something seems very wrong about bluffing in this spot with JJ. OK you put him to a decision but it shouldn't be a very difficult one.

imo c/f > c/c two streets > crai > b/f

[Check_The_Nuts]

Why the [censored] would he shove if we bet? Does he think we fold AK/KQ/sets/flushes a lot on the turn? Seems like an insane bluff for him to make. I've been known to bluff, 3bet light, float, etc. but I can't think of many hands (only one) where I raised the turn as a bluff.

Not to mention over 450 hands there is no history of a lot of floats, or him doing anything out of line. There's definitely times I've bet/called all in on boards like AA37 with TT to bad players who float too much on the turn, but they were floating 50% of the time at least and playing back on the turn almost always.

[corsakh]

Sorry, I don't understand the concept of playing postflop poker without initiative or great implied odds.

Suited connectors DO show profit because they have many more ways to make combodraws and in particular straights, they do not have RIO, and because they have implied odds vs a tight opening.

You cant have implied odds vs a 30% steal. QJs does not make many combodraws. And you don't even have a hand to float or SD with.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I don't understand the concept of playing postflop poker without initiative or great implied odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what to say. Nobody ever has anything anyways and you have position. Let me ask you this. How often are you called in villains spot by the button and forced to play your hand oop and are giving up after the flop? Of the times that you don't give up on the flop, how often are you bet folding the turn? Now tell me you can't play ip in a raised pot against a relatively loose opener without the initiative preflop.
[ QUOTE ]
You cant have implied odds vs a 30% steal. QJs does not make many combodraws. And you don't even have a hand to float or SD with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure why you keep bringing up implied odds. It's not like we are only playing this hands for it's showdown value. You are allowed to bluff or do other things than flop a pair and call down. I'm also not really sure what you mean by not having a hand to float with. Floating profitability is more a function of the board and villains likely range along with what your perceived range is.

[scallop]

This is why saying: villian is "x" is non-productive.

Villian was described in OP as "fairly straight forward abc tag".

Clearly noone agree's with this. I dont understand why everyone hates c/f so much? If this guy is any good at all then he will be using his position to screw us over.

Check/Calling is awfull. All rivers hurt us, because we have to play all river OOP, with an over-card already guarenteed and a flush already possible.

If you are in the Check/Call camp you should be in the crai camp because then you manifest some fold equity and fold out his floats. Sure when he calls and you lose it sucks, but c/c would leave you in the same spot on the river and you probablly c/c that too? If you dont... then wtf? Dont call the turn.

If he is floating a ton then b/c might be ok. B/F would seem counter-intuitive if everyone is convinced that he floats a to.

Personally I think he can easily have a set here, and be prepared to gamble with you. The flop likely did not improve your hand and he might want to slow play to let you hand yourself. This fits perfectly with pf action too.

I think c/r, c/c, b/c and b/f ALL suck as options.

C/F for me... we dont have to win every pot.

[corsakh]

If you bet 15 into 21 on this turn and villain raises to 55 - what do you call with?

Do you call with JJ?
Do you call with KQ?
Do you call with AQ?
Do you call with AA?

What hand do you need to call here with?

There are no two pair on the board.
There are no straights on the board.

Even if you have 77 or 44 it means you don't have a diamond and villain still has a little bit of equity. How often do you have a set here compared to all your other hands?

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to say. Nobody ever has anything anyways and you have position. Let me ask you this. How often are you called in villains spot by the button and forced to play your hand oop and are giving up after the flop? Of the times that you don't give up on the flop, how often are you bet folding the turn? Now tell me you can't play ip in a raised pot against a relatively loose opener without the initiative preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thats 100% correct. But then I adjust. If its a fish, I give up easily and just abuse him next time I have a hand. If its a reg, we are both entering a world of pain until one of us changes tables. And I am fairly certain its not going to be me if he starts getting tricky with UI QJs. Not at 50NL anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]