Party 25/50, call or raise river

[Allinlife]

just curious for those that said raise the flop- against what kind of opponents do we raise this flop with? it seems against decent tags it sort of violates the common concept of not raising in wa/wb situation.

[AB_illusive]

Why? You think he got better at folding, or is valuebetting less thin on the river?

[AB_illusive]

Thx a lot for all the answers!

It seems like there's a slight overweight of people wanting to call, but in general, there's disagreement about it. Here goes what I thought - thoughts on my mindset are most welcomed.

Raising flop is for me not an option. Given the fact that he 2nd-barrels me constantly, I much prefer the passive line (or, on the other hand, bet-call (maybe fold) turn if he check-raises me). I'm more inclined to raising the turn, as multiple draws are now in play. What do you say about that?

As the hand went out, I pushed river based on the following thoughts:
Given the dynamics, I don't see him 2nd barrelling turn a lot with especially draws. As he has observed, he is not folding out a lot of made hands (I'm a station allright :-)..), which means barrelling the turn only folds out air (which of course, are in my range). I would rather expect a CR og CC, if you should have turn a draw, unless it's most marginal like 89 or so.
Furthermore, he might be valuebetting me quite thin on the river (as low as KJ or so), mostly because he might think that I think he expanded his 2nd barrelling to a 3rd one and get quite slim calls.
As for his calling range, I think he's getting away from AJ or lower, but I don't ever see him folding any Q (even QT), KK or AA, or worse two pair. Maybe he'll puke a bit while calling, but he responds to good potodds as finding a 10% chance I'm bluffing or valueraising worse, and call.

However, there are some issues. I think his range is at least 25% air at this point. Furthermore, I'm in doubt whether he'll valuebet me this big on the river with the range of marginal holdings. I still believe he'll call a push w/ those hands, but the betsizing on the river just seems to narrow down his range for some reason.

He didn't have a tough call though, as I shoved into nuts: Ad9d.

Thx for all the responses so far. I really hope, some of you guys (KRANTZ and cts esp.) would like to expand on the idea of raising the flop vs. MBH.

- AB

[True]

you said you don't think he would double barrel you right after you said "I only call flop because he will double barrel me"

[AB_illusive]

Double barrel me with draws, was the sentence. But you have a point about my thoughts being contradictive about certain things.

[luegofuego]

if maybehot hasnt become a whole lot better since i last played on party, i hate not pushing.

[pethie]

[ QUOTE ]
if maybehot hasnt become a whole lot better since i last played on party, i hate not pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has not. I'm pushing in a heartbeat.

[9cao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if maybehot hasnt become a whole lot better since i last played on party, i hate not pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has not. I'm pushing in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree strongly. He is still bad, but he is much better than he used to be. He has air/monster too often for me to want to push the river and not positive he is paying off with medium holdings although if anyone has the image for it OP might.

[Lefort]

Guys, didn't you read the results? Villain has the nuts every time. CLOSE THREAD.

[AB_illusive]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, didn't you read the results? Villain has the nuts every time. CLOSE THREAD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blehr.. I actually considered just not putting it there, as it's not important for the thread/discussion at all.

KRANTZ/cts - you mind expanding on the raise flop idea?