the clearest second bullet right ? guess wrong ^^

[Hattifnatt]

dont like pf at all, postflop standard.

[ikestoys]

pf is bad w/o reads

[FireStorm]

I don't like this at all. What if your opponent has the NFD here? How about folding out a hand like KQ/QJ, think that happens this often? Given his stack size I don't really think you have much FE here at all, and you have next to no clean outs if called.

[Darkfolder]

[ QUOTE ]
looks fine

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[DTD]

This is totally standard hand post flop.

[spiff21]

I don't understand how this play can be anyting but awful. We don't have any information about the limping player. He might the biggest nit in the world - vpip 5 and always open limping QQ+. He might be a station who never folds before he has seen the river card.

I think it is really stupid to fire blindly without more information to work with.

preflop bad
flop ok
turn bad

[DTD]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how this play can be anyting but awful. We don't have any information about the limping player. He might the biggest nit in the world - vpip 5 and always open limping QQ+. He might be a station who never folds before he has seen the river card.

I think it is really stupid to fire blindly without more information to work with.

preflop bad
flop ok
turn bad

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense at all. You have to do something and poker is not a game of full information. Against most players a second bullet works well here. Even if it was neutral, or even slightly -EV in its own right, it helps in getting paid when you fire twice when you actually have a good hand.

[spiff21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how this play can be anyting but awful. We don't have any information about the limping player. He might the biggest nit in the world - vpip 5 and always open limping QQ+. He might be a station who never folds before he has seen the river card.

I think it is really stupid to fire blindly without more information to work with.

preflop bad
flop ok
turn bad

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense at all. You have to do something and poker is not a game of full information. Against most players a second bullet works well here. Even if it was neutral, or even slightly -EV in its own right, it helps in getting paid when you fire twice when you actually have a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So "have to do something" is the argument for raising a trash hand out of position against a player you have no information about?

How will this play help you get paid when you have a big hand if you don't go to showdown?

Let's assume he is the average player. From my experience his range should be middle cards, weaker broadway or Ax. Many of these hands hit this flop pretty good. So he either has some pair or a nice draw, which he won't let go until he has seen the river card. A 3-barrel bluff might work against this range, but is it really worth it just to create an image? I mean, this player might very well be so bad that he won't understand that there are different player types and playing styles.

[FireStorm]

Wait a couple of rounds for information, instead of trying to body slam unknowns off hands with suited garbage that turns into bottom pair. Thus, you don't have to feel like you have to "do something".

As far as the actual hand, I can't imagine how this is standard, no idea why 2p2 feels he can't have the NFD here, or that he's expected to fold a big Q.

[DTD]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait a couple of rounds for information, instead of trying to body slam unknowns off hands with suited garbage that turns into bottom pair. Thus, you don't have to feel like you have to "do something".

As far as the actual hand, I can't imagine how this is standard, no idea why 2p2 feels he can't have the NFD here, or that he's expected to fold a big Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF has happened to this thread. Checking is doing something. Betting is doing something. Saying, "oh he may have this so why risk it" doesn't provide a strong argument for anything. Who says he can't have the NFD? All sorts of crap (mostly still beating a pair of 5s) calls the flop but not the turn. It also gives the chance for a another bullet sometimes, depending on the card.