is this excusable?

[glass_onion]

This is a super juicy table. A few hands after this I went on a 5 buyin run, eliminating the two big stacks at the table.

Basically, the reraiser in this hand is donkey-tilting. Raising 100% of hands preflop, and betting 80% on flop. I've seen him give up exactly twice on when someone plays back at him, but mostly he is just taking the small stacks to the felt each time.

I've doubled through him twice now, once winning with bottom two pair when my 13 out st8 missed. He hates me. The other guy in the hand is the passive, tight nit we all hate. I've never seen him mini bet, but he knew that the preflop raiser would bet pot if he had checked, so why minibet? Draw your own conclusions.

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/2

Seat 1: a ($813.05 in chips)
Seat 3: b ($69.95 in chips)
Seat 4: hero($592.35 in chips)
Seat 5: mr tight($116 in chips)
Seat 6: donkeytilt($390.10 in chips)


Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">donkey tilt raises to $11</font>, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($46, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">mr tight bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000"> donkey tilt raises to $48</font>, SB folds, Hero ?

You probably guessed, I thought and thought and finally folded. Donkeytilt's range is a little better than a random hand here, but mr tight has either some set, NFD, or giant wrap here 100% of the time. My thought was RR or fold situation, hope to drive off some competing draws. I still didn't like the proposition of playing for 2 buyins with a lot of non nut draws.

FWIW, i would have happily donked it all in had mr tight checked initially. Basically, his minibet caused me to pussy out.

THoughts???

[swope]

imo, you lose this hand at showdown like 19 out of 20 times.

[glass_onion]

Lets say I change mr tight to an unknown. How does that affect your equation? and btw, what type of player do you classify yourself as? Do you play 1/2 6 max?

[LA_Price]

I might call here though folding isn't that bad. I don't really like reraising with how deep you. If you had a pair, especially a king, I would like it better.

You're pretty deep though. BTW what are you doing limp calling with that hand and a deep stack? I would like it if you were shorter as you wouldn't fear flush over flush scenarios. I realize this guy is donkey tilting, but IMO this is how they sometimes get some of those chips back.

[swope]

i play primarily 1/2 6max and 2/4 6max. i am horribly loose pre flop and often make stupid call downs post flop if i feel i have a read. both these habits tend to cost me money, however im very profitable at 2/4, much less so at lower limits, and my few shots at 3/6 &amp; 5/10 were pathetic misadventures.

that said!

you simply have no nut draws here whatsoever. this is not a hand i could possibly call with on this flop. the chances of this person having a smaller flush draw than you are very, very bad, so you have to duck a diamond, and potting *or* calling pot with an open ended straight draw is rarely profitable imo. if you had some sort of wrap, then yeah you could sell me on a call but even then if a diamond comes youre going to have a terrible time not getting stacked.

im just saying, this hand has bad news written all over it to me. fold and wait for a better spot unless you want to buy a better read on villain.

[glass_onion]

i guess I can't see calling here because I'd fear one person has some of my st8 outs, so i'm likely splitting there if I hit, and someone might have me beat on the flush end of it. I'm in pretty bad shape if I have the 2nd best flush draw, which is why I feel like its a raise or fold. Assuming I call, what's my plan when the a) non nut st8 hits, b) my flush comes in, or c) a blank hits. Seems like in A &amp; B i'm in a win small, lose big situation. Plus I feel like i'm 50% to see mr tight reraise here.

Why am I limping? Well, I thought it was a pretty good hand to play against donkey tilt, and since he was raising everything I just started thinking of $7-$15 to see a flop as a 'call.' I reasoned I could hit any number of draws, and when I miss I know I can give the hand up clean. After evaluating the hand here, I'm thinking that if I'm going to fold this flop, I shouldn't play it at all.

Faulty?

[glass_onion]

I appreciate that you think its a clear fold, especially since you identify yourself as horribly loose preflop and someone who makes stupid calls post flop.

I'm pretty much a nit, but I like to step out and go superLAG if a) someone is donkey tilting or b). table is playing passive, i'll do it for exactly 20 hands to loosen my opponents calling standards

[LA_Price]

I know your thought process. does it go something like "I'm going to call, and flop the nuts on a totally safe board and everyone's just going to call my obvious bets and I'm going to take his stack."

The truth is with this hand you usually hit something marginal, and even when you hit something great, you still have a tough decision to make. On the button where you're playing obvious opponents, call the raise and play it, but your plan with this or any hand for that matter should also be to occasionally bluff(a small % of the time) when you don't hit anything, and take a flop where no one else has hit anything either. You know all of your "outs" if they are truly outs, but if this guy is going to pay you off on all of them then it's correct for you to call. If he isn't going to pay you off on all of them then you should be picking a few cards you plan to bluff at.

Out of position even against this donkey I really don't think that you're going to hit enough flops, or take enough flops to make the situation profitable. If you're in position and just call behind him on this flop, there are so many cards that don't give him the nuts where he's going to have no clue what you have. This is just one example where you flop pretty good and still don't "win" simply because of your poor position.

[glass_onion]

[ QUOTE ]


I know your thought process. does it go something like "I'm going to call, and flop the nuts on a totally safe board and everyone's just going to call my obvious bets and I'm going to take his stack."[ QUOTE ]


My thought process isn't this, in fact I wrote my thought process in the previous thread. I'm not some random beginner at this game, and I'm not sure if you meant this to be insulting or not.

I appreciate the insight, in any case. I still don't see the merit in calling IN THIS EXACT example, being that mr tight would be getting odds to draw if I call. HU with donkey tilt, it is a possibile play.

[LA_Price]

[ QUOTE ]
Why am I limping? Well, I thought it was a pretty good hand to play against donkey tilt, and since he was raising everything I just started thinking of $7-$15 to see a flop as a 'call.' I reasoned I could hit any number of draws, and when I miss I know I can give the hand up clean

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a plan to hit or fold. I think you need a plan to steal on some flops as well in order to make this hand in this spot profitable.

As far as mr. tight betting he might have a set, and you say why would he bet into the pfr when he knows he's going to bet. He did only bet 6 which is a pretty weak bet. Usually tight players are also predictable, but not always, but I actually think he would bet more or check with a set. What you should be worried about is that he has a flush draw bigger than yours.

I didn't say I would call, I said I might call and if I did I might plan to bet at the offsuit 2's, as well as the maybe the offsuit Q's and 5's, as well as my "outs". However I'd usually be in position when i had a hand like this so my decisions would be a lot easier.

Also my comment wasn't intended to insult and you claim that you're not a "rank beginner" but when I see mistakes I'm going to point them out whatever your post count or hand experience is.