nl1000 jacks

[livestream]

10 players

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $50</font>, 2 folds, CO calls, 4 folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($125, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $100</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $200</font>, Hero


560usd stack and he had 560 left
Would you give him credit for a K?
Call and lead turn blank(for an "AI")?
Shove flop?
c/r turn?(if possible,often call his AI)
fold?

I have my standard line but i want to hear something new/better. Lets say he is an unknown.

[Albert Moulton]

Assuming, "...he is an unknown." then...

Would you give him credit for a K?
Yes, although he might have a boat hoping you have Kx or an OESFD or GSSFD, as well, but he probably doesn't have air or a bluff or a small pair very often.

Call and lead turn blank(for an "AI")?
No

Shove flop?
No

c/r turn?(if possible,often call his AI)
No

fold?
Yes

Why?
Because most people don't mess around on a paired board, especially when the pair is a broadway pair, unless they at least have trips. It is possible that he has an OESFD, or GSSFD, or TT for full house, or KTs for a full house, or maybe a low pair or even air just bluffing. The question is, how do you figure out if he's bluffing in a way that doesn't put your stack at risk when he's not? And since you are out of position, there isn't an easy answer. I think that unless you have a good reason to suspect that he is making this move with hands like 88 or As2s much more often than with better hands like AsJs, Kx, TT, KTs, etc, that you should give him credit for the big hand and lay it down this time.

[livestream]

Against which players you go into war?

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
Against which players you go into war?

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ OOP on this board with these stacks is not a go to war hand, IMO. I guess I just wouldn't take JJ to war vs anybody here.

With JJ you are drawing to 2 outs, at most, against Kx other than KT. Any further action past the min-raise over the cb commits 20% or more of your stack OOP. So, if you go past the flop min-raise etiher with a call or a raise, you're usually going all the way either on the flop, or on a blank turn. And I just don't think you win more than you lose most times vs most opponents on a board like this OOP and with only 2 outs when you're behind. I suppose if villain had naked flush draws a lot of the time, JJ looks better to play for stacks, but I don't think that happens enough of the time to make playing JJ for stacks here +EV.

[sambo_888]

nice post albert. i agree.

[Jeans]

I think this is a standard fold against an unknown

[ActionStan]

...snip...
I think that unless you have a good reason to suspect that he is making this move with hands like 88 or As2s much more often than with better hands like AsJs, Kx, TT, KTs, etc, that you should give him credit for the big hand and lay it down this time.
...snip...

If he is bluffing, how often is a player at the higher limits min-raise bluffing an unknown? I would think you'd have to be pretty sure that you weren't going to get weak calls if you were to use this bluff in lieu of a pot sized bluff that way. Unless of course you were setting up for a bigger turn bluff, which would still suck for JJ. I'd think you'd want to have a pretty good idea of how a given villain would interpret this before you pull it out of the bag. This would seem to argue more strongly that this is a raise for value. I don't use this bluff at NL200, so maybe this thinking doesn't apply.

[soah]

generally the bigger the game, the more likely you are way ahead here

[ActionStan]

Do you mean raiser or the Js? At high limits is the usually a bluff or rarely a bluff?

Thanks.

[Renton]

pretty sure in a 5/10 game you have to call here at least once.

Its just unreasonable to put someone on such a narrow range right away, particularly when they are in position and its a great spot to minraise as a bluff/semibluff