58s --- Non-standard play with the big draw --- vs a regular

cs3 · #1 06-30-2007, 08:30 PM

Villain is a regular multitabler. Hes a pretty nitty tag running like 18/6/1.5 over 1k hands or so. other than his PF limp/call syndrome, hes somewhat decent, knows that im pretty aggro postflop, and has a hisory of playing back at my c-bets specifically. usually has a v strong hand when he makes a big bet adn vice versa.

ive been playing my regular 21/17 game, opening anything sorta playable from the CO and button when its folded to me. villain just saw me play this hand immediatley before the hand in question question on the same table:
Stack sizes:
UTG: $109.70
UTG+1: $100
CO: $147.80
Button: $90.10
SB: $91.65
HERO: $127.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button raises to $4, SB calls, HERO calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($12, 3 players)
SB checks, HERO bets $10, Button raises to $84, SB folds, HERO raises all-in $123.1, Button calls all-in $2.1.
Uncalled bets: $37 returned to HERO.
Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($184.2, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $184.2)
River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($184.2, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $184.2)
 MHIG vs Kc9x 
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 NOW ON TO THE HAND IN QUESTION: 
Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $147.80
HERO: $90.1
SB: $91.65
HERO: $218.20
SB: $109.70
BB: $100

Pre-flop: (4 players) HERO is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, HERO raises to $4, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($9, 2 players)
SB checks, HERO bets $6, SB raises to $17, HERO calls.
 standard play is obviously to push the flop, but i've been experimenting with taking different lines with my combo draws lately, ESPECIALLY vs regs, and have several resaons for doing so (we can discuss those reasons as well as this particular hand if you wish) 

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($43, 2 players)
SB bets $15, HERO????
 wtf does a 1/3 pot bet mean? best move now?

Ben86 · #2 06-30-2007, 08:41 PM

I'd take your free card.. i don't know why hes blocking here but id actually be weary of him drawing too. if river blanked and he bet id be tempted to call. If a diamond hit that would be interesting

orange · #3 06-30-2007, 08:44 PM

Call turn. Shove if you improve ont he river.

cs3 · #4 06-30-2007, 08:49 PM

reasoning for calling the turn?
what do you do if river blanks and he checks?
what if he shoves on a river 5, 8, or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? are we happy calling?

i'll give my thoughts on the hand after some more discussion

SilentNoise · #5 06-30-2007, 08:51 PM

whenever i raise a REALL weak looking lead (and they MUST know it looks weak too) from a regular they insta shove over the top. so ive come to the conclusion that no regular would ever bet so weak unless they WANTED you to raise. obviously this is disastrous. you are getting great odds on the call so id just call, since raising will probably get you in trouble i think

cs3 · #6 06-30-2007, 09:00 PM

why would he try to "induce" a raise with a big hand? this a pretty ridic drawy board i think, and i doubt this guy is the type that expects me to raise a bet just becasue it looks weak... remeber what i said about his big bets = big hands in our past history?

are we ever getting paid off on a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river when he checks to us?
and also:
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what do you do if river blanks and he checks?
what if he shoves on a river 5, 8, or ? are we happy calling?

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SilentNoise · #7 06-30-2007, 09:09 PM

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why would he try to "induce" a raise with a big hand?

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The same reason why people bet flop and c/r turn with top set even on drawy boards.

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are we ever getting paid off on a river when he checks to us?

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It doesn't matter because we are getting better than the neccessary direct odds to hit our draw. Even if we assume hitting two pair isn't good , which it will be some % of the time.

If he checks river and you miss id probably check behind. your hand has some showdown value. i think if you call the turn your hand looks like a possible draw and he is likely to look you up pretty light (he is hardly ever folding better hands, or calling with worse)

If he shoves the river if you hit, tricky. id be more inclined to call if you hit trips, coz atleast you beat KQ then. If you hit an 8. i dunno really.. i think i go to showdown way too much (26.6% went to showdown and win 50.8% at showdown over 150K hands )but even for me its close.

cs3 · #8 06-30-2007, 09:29 PM

my only problem with your thought process is this:
[ QUOTE ]
If he checks river and you miss id probably check behind. your hand has some showdown value. i think if you call the turn your hand looks like a possible draw and he is likely to look you up pretty light (he is hardly ever folding better hands, or calling with worse)

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if we call turn our hand can ONLY be a draw. i know were getting direct odds, but hes only putting money in on the river if he hits a better draw, or if river blanks and he has a legit made hand. i think we get stacked pretty often if we call turn, hit one of our outs on the river, and then mange to get all in.

not sure what you mean by "likely to look you up pretty light". do you mean we shouldnt bluff the river on a blank if its checked to us? thats reasonable, but i dont think he ever checks both the turn and river, after ch/r the flop, with any hand that he plans on ch/calling a river bet with.
correct me if i misunderstood you

SilentNoise · #9 06-30-2007, 09:38 PM

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i know were getting direct odds, but hes only putting money in on the river if he hits a better draw, or if river blanks and he has a legit made hand.

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Who cares if he only puts in money on the river if he has us beat (which is a BIG assumption anyway)...but EVEN IF IT WAS TRUE...does it even matter? Assuming our outs to flush are clean then we dont need him to put any money in on the river in order to make our turn call profitable.

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i think we get stacked pretty often if we call turn, hit one of our outs on the river, and then mange to get all in.

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I think if you went broke with two card flushes all the time, it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Folding two card flushes is probably more exploitable than going broke with them. Just call it variance or something? If he bets a diamond river hard, i can see a case for just calling though.

[ QUOTE ]
not sure what you mean by "likely to look you up pretty light". do you mean we shouldnt bluff the river on a blank if its checked to us?

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Yes this is what i mean. Coz your hand looks weak and he knows hes inducing a bluff by checking to you on the river, you will get called alot. so i think bluffing on a missed river is bad

cs3 · #10 06-30-2007, 09:47 PM

i agree i would never ever fold a rivered flush on this board for 100bb's but i was more concerned with hitting one of my other outs and then getting pushed on - but that was proabably highly unlikely given his small turn bet.

and im not disagreeing that calling is +EV here. it is. but i felt like pushing was even more +EV. i felt like the best made hand he could have was KQ, and thouhgt he was drawing himself pretty often. so i took his tiny turn bet for exaclty what it looked like - weakness.

so i shoved. thouhgts?

also, general thoughts on my line (bet/call flop, push turn) with big draws vs regs?