Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself

[Courtesy Flush]

I was playing at Oceans 11 last night when the following situation arose. I had two spewtards to my left who loved to raise trash pre-flop, so I limp/shoved with AQc and they both called me with 88 and K8. I missed the board and some old people at the other end of the table praised the 88 and commented on how "the best hand won." I know I shouldn't even say a word here, but I couldn't help myself and interjected that my hand was in fact best in that scenario. They all argued with me of course, but finally conceeded that I was ahead %-wise while still maintaining that 88 was the "best hand." I conintued to insist that AQc was the best hand because of the %, but they all agreed that 88 was "best" because of it's immediate ranking against AQ. This is when I realized we had different definitions of what makes the "best hand." I see where they are coming from, but it just doesn't seem right to me to label a hand that's behind as "best."

So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

[ReptileHouse]

For me, best = has the greatest equity. (i.e., pokerstove it)

That is not the common definition, though. Most people consider it to be the hand that would win "right now."

Similar arguments over semantics occur when you start talking about the definition of "being ahead."

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
Similar arguments over semantics occur when you start talking about the definition of "being ahead."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that one's a little trickier. "Being ahead" is often thought of as the percentage signs on the hands on TV.

[AngusThermopyle]

If all the money is going in, the "best hand" is the one with the most equity. It doesn't matter if one hand is currently "ahead". You collect the pot after the River card, not before the Flop or on the Turn.

But even in your case, consider that AQc is a 47.6 to 52.4 dog vs 8h8d heads up.
What changes the numbers is the presence of the K8. So, if the K8 had mucked, and you were heads up, it would appear that the 88 was now the 'best hand', until you consider the dead cards (AQc is then a 53-47 favorite). But if you are going to do that, you have to ask everybody what they mucked.

[Yads]

The best hand is the one that would win if no more cards were dealt.

[Mano]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

[Biggle10]

[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

[/ QUOTE ]

How are people arguing that 88 is the best hand? Hold'em is played with 7 cards.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

[/ QUOTE ]

How are people arguing that 88 is the best hand? Hold'em is played with 7 cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like in this match up, AcQc is the best hand. Things change if you have to bet or call in installments on the flop, then the turn, then the river. But that's not the case here. AcQc is "best."

But I wouldn't argue with anybody at the table. You made a move. Two guys called without good pot odds relative to their hand equity. You had a positive expectation when the money went in, but you lost. Just say, "nice hand" and rebuy. If they really are bad players, then don't tap the glass.

[CORed]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Pokerstove results:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

144,192,195 games 149.305 secs 965,755 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.810% 40.52% 00.30% 58432109 429251.50 { 88 }
Hand 1: 41.133% 40.70% 00.44% 58693360 633339.00 { AQs }
Hand 2: 18.057% 17.43% 00.63% 25131604 913076.50 { random }
</pre><hr />

Three-way, against a random third hand, AQs is a little bit ahead of 88 . This is a Monte Carlo, so the numbers aren't exact, but they're close.

[Rek]

I can't believe some of you guys are arguing - the best hand is the hand with the highest % of winning once all cards are dealt.

I havn't done the math but in this case if AQs has a greater % of winning it is clearly the best hand. The fact that he already has a pair is of no consequence.

OP, I'm with you 100%