New poster and does my strategy make any sense

[AmarilloFinn]

Hello everyone!

I'm relatively new to the game, I've been watching poker on TV for few years and I want to start playing the game myself. Let's cut down to the chase, I'm in it for the money but I also find the game very entertaining. But becoming a winning player is my goal.

I'm a former programmer, currently doing my PhD studies and I do some consulting every now and then, but I do have free time as well. Instead of just watching poker I figure I might just as well play it. So I guess it's fair to say I'm not afraid of learning the math. In fact I think I'll be an online player mostly because I don't think I have the talent of reading people as far as detecting tells goes. Not that I wouldn't want to play live, but let's just say I'm a humble beginner. Aside from decent math skills, I'm a very structured thinker, so a strong strategy based on that will suit me the best. I'm also very boring and patient by nature, so I think my personality is suited pretty well for online poker as well. I'm not a big risk taker though, I don't have much gambling in me, so I have some weaknesses from the get go.

So my "to do"-list so far includes reading Sklansky's Theory of Poker and digesting as much as possible. Then, I'll hit the tables to have some real learning experiences and read more as I go and study the game continuously. I have $600 bankroll, so I think I should stick with the limit games, .1/.2. Does this sound right? Some people might recommend .25/.50 with my bankroll but I'm willing to learn and get those 20k or so hands so I can then analyze my game for the first time and adjust. I'm also thinking of playing only Limit Texas Hold'em ring games for starters.

I'd like some input for my choices, I just want to approach this as well as a newbie can. Should I be worrying about the rakeback at this point? Are there any sites you guys would recommend (I'm from Europe)?

The reason I want to start from .1/.2 instead of higher is because I'd like to see how some cards play out and I'm bound to make lots of mistakes. That said, I'm most likely to prefer tight preflop strategy, premium starting hands, and aggressive play after the flop. I also want to learn to calculate pot odds well from the get go. That's all I can think I should learn immidiately, and the rest I would study as I go.

On average, I have about 2 to 4 hours per day to learn and play as for now and I'm willing to invest that time fully.

What do you think? Does this make any sense? Any recommendations? Thanks!

[Arjonius]

My first thought is that since you got interested by watching poker on TV, you might want to decide whether you want to play limit or no limit. They're quite different games; because of the nature of the betting, limit is more mathematical and more draw-oriented.

Also, before jumping to Theory of Poker, which is an advanced book, what have you read in terms of teaching yourself to play a solid basic game. While I have to admit I haven't read it, one possibility is Getting Started in Hold 'em by Ed Miller.

[AmarilloFinn]

Arjonius, I read that limit games requires more math in general, that's why I'm thinking I should start with the limit games. Of course all the poker on TV for me has been No Limit tournaments. But I also realize that it's not for me as a beginner, so I figure my best chances to start from is limit games, because I'm willing to put in the time and learn the math and I have no problem with it. In fact it's the aspect that interests me the most.

Thank you for the book recommendation, I will definitely have a look at it. This is why I'm asking for input, I just want to start out as well as possible.

This is what I have gathered so far, I know I'm missing a lot of things to look at even as I'm just beginning, so keep those tips coming.

I'm also going to document the things I do so if I get anywhere, I'll post it here later on as I advance. The reason why I haven't started earlier... well simply I didn't have much free time and I want to make a real effort if I'm going to do it and now I do have some time to start learning so... that's the main reason. I knew I'd only lose money if I hit the tables and not put in the time and effort.

[phydaux]

Limit is a very "mechanical" game. It's very easy to create a pre-flop hand chart with a set of rules that say "in this situation, do this."

After the flop, it's all about the math.

Do I have pot equity? IF yes, THEN raise.
ELSE
Do I have pot odds? IF yes, THEN call.
ELSE
Fold.

At higher stakes it becomes a bit more complex, but at low stakes lots of players play a very mechanical game on four tables simultaneously and do quite well.

[AmarilloFinn]

phydaux, yes, that's why I thought this would suit me the best if this in fact is correct. Learning pot equity and pot odds plus playing premium starting hands would give me experience on basic level, just as a beginner and I just want the odd calculating to become my second nature first so it's something I do well and automatically. Just so I won't lose too much in the beginning, I'd prefer not to reload. So it seems so far that I've chosen the right game for what I want to focus on first and this gives me time to study more so I can then do something else later on or just improve my game. Then again, that's all I know as of now so it's either doing this or hitting 10 more books first. But I'd really like to start playing simple basic game with low limits, not because I'd be impatient but because I feel it's something I need to do anyway at some point.

[BritNewbie]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be worrying about the rakeback at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever site(s) you sign up with, get rakeback if at all possible. To start with, it won't seem that important in monetary terms. But later, if you go as far as you're hoping to, you'll be extremely pleased that you're getting rakeback.

[Harv72b]

"The Mathematics of Poker" by Bill Chen & Jerrod Ankenman. From the sounds of things, that book may as well have been written specifically for you. I think you'll get a lot out of it, as well as from Theory of Poker & Small Stakes Hold'em...really, from just about any poker book. You're a grad student, so by now I'm sure you're well acquainted with reading things critically, which will help to siphon out the good from the bad in many other books.

Starting at the very bottom is a good way to get the experience & work out the kinks in your game, and for a person who prefers the mathematical approach to poker limit hold'em is probably the best fit. Not all sites spread limit games down to .10/.20, though, so do your homework before you deposit...bonuswhores.com is a great resource for that (as well as for getting most out of the bonuses available to new players).

Which brings me to a very important point which someone else may have mentioned already: do not deposit to any site until you have surfed around & compared the various initial deposit bonuses you can get. Also, if rakeback is available for that site, get it. Rakeback is basically free money for you if you plan to play the hands anyway, and even if it won't add up to much while you're playing microstakes games, the day may come when you're playing much higher & it will make a much bigger difference to your bankroll. Many sites will not allow you to switch over to a rakeback account once you've already established another account with them, or at least make it difficult to do so. Actually, don't even download the poker software from any site until you're ready to make your first deposit to it.

I'm sure somebody mentioned PokerTracker by now, but if you plan to play online it bears repeating--get it. Especially in the hands of a person who already understands programming & advanced mathematics (by which I mean algebra, not chaos theory or anything), it will pay for itself in a matter of weeks, even at the limits you're starting at.

Other than that, welcome to the forums, good luck at the tables, and keep trying to improve. Also, put in some hours reading through the micro stakes limit hold'em forum on here...there is a lot of great information there from very knowledgeable posters, on everything from getting started in LHE to specific situations you're likely to find yourself in during hands. Don't be afraid to get involved in the discussions there, either--the worst that can happen is that you say something incorrect & learn from it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[AmarilloFinn]

Harv, Thank you for the suggestion. I will definitely look it up. Since there are differencies between limit and no limit hold'em, would you suggest a reading order of some kind? So far I've acquired the following:

Theory of Poker
Little Green Book

I've ordered the following books:

Getting Started in Hold'em

A lot of people recommend Harrington on Hold'em I-III, but they seem to be no limit tournament books. I don't know if they are beneficial for me at this point, since my chosen game is a bit different. I do plan on playing no limit as well and getting myself into live games at some point, but as a starting point I'd like to focus on limit games.

So I'll look up The Mathematics of Poker as well. I'll go through the articles and posts about micro stakes as well, as long as it's worthwhile knowing, I'm happy to read it.

Are there any books about analyzing vast amounts of hands? It sounds fairly simple, but I'd like to get the advantage of doing things correctly from the beginning if such books exists.

Thanks for the input, I'm going to document how things advance so if there's going to be any action, I'll share it with others if anyone wants to know.

[Harv72b]

I haven't read Getting Started in Hold'em; don't know if it was even available when I was getting started. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] The first limit book I read and which turned me into pretty much an instant winner was Matt Hilger's "Internet Texas Hold'em". It's a good, basic book, well written, and explained in a way that I found very easy to understand.

The book that you need to read as a limit hold'em player is "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth. Some concepts in the book are a bit outdated, except perhaps in the lowest limit B&M games, but the basic advice & the thinking it teaches are dead on correct. Just understand going into it that you can't just take the starting hands chart & make millions with it. Theory of Poker is also a great book for any variation of the game. Gordon's Little Green Book is pretty decent, a bit short for my tastes, but again geared towards no limit (and by the way, Harrington on Hold'em is probably the best book currently available for no limit hold'em, NL MTT play in particular).

Most of the other limit books I've either read or have heard good things about are geared towards more advanced play, and are probably better put off until you've established your base skills.

One other book that I found very helpful is "Zen and the Art of Poker" by Larry Phillips. I don't agree with everything he writes in it, particularly the things about "riding a hot streak", but the overall principles of trying to remain calm & focused while shrugging off the bad beats as statistically improbable (but also certain, given a long enough timeline) helped me out. And while it's not in the least bit a strategy guide, Jim McManus' "Positively Fifth Street" is an excellent read.

I believe Stoxtrader's new book "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" does go a bit into the interpretation of PokerTracker stats, but I haven't read it myself & couldn't say exactly how far or how well he does. The book itself is highly regarded on the forums, but is geared towards game conditions that you won't often find in smaller stakes games. There are bazillions (really, I counted!) of excellent posts on here & in the archives on statistical analysis of poker hands and PokerTracker stats in general, and of course there's also a whole forum dedicated to Probability questions (though it doesn't usually get much traffic).

I don't think the order much matters, excepting of course the more advanced limit hold'em texts. If you understand the basic concepts of limit hold'em & the basic maths involved (Theory of Poker will help with that if you aren't sure about application), you can likely jump right into SSH & digest it pretty well. If not, ITH or Getting Started should get you up to speed fairly quickly. Once you've got those under your belt, just keep reading everything you can get your hands on & incorporating the good advice (that's an excellent way to spend your online FPPs, by the way). Oh, and of course playing & analyzing your own hands. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Yossarian147]

You seem like a very rationale person, and your plan is sound. I would start with Getting Started in Hold em. Once you have those concepts mastered study Small Stakes Hold Em until you totally understand and can apply every concept. That book alone will pay for itself hundreds of times over, and I'm not exaggerating. Play, study, post, read the forum, play more and you will maximize your chance of success.