PCA Step 4 ghey spot vs. BigJoe

[kleath]

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I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

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Yeah this is pretty much what I was going to say, if we have 62 or something Id be more inclined to check and be willing to fold to a bad board when we dont have equity, J9 though is doing very well vs his range pre and I dont want to see a board like this and either fold or have to make a really thin call

[TheUsher]

coolest sng hand + replies i've seen in awhile. i probably call because well, i like calling.

[Apathy]

When I read this hand and the first few replies my immediate instinct was to write a few quick lines to the 'just push pf' crowd about how shoving your worst hands here is almost certaintly not correct as long as you can play near perfectly post flop.

Curtains did an awesome job of explaining what I wanted to say though so just read that for my thoughts. I think J-9 is a call here though?

[Apathy]

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I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

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dont you see how this is kinda dumb though? Nobody is *making* you fold, just make the right decision. If you are going to be making bad folds a bunch then yeah you should stick it in but that's not really the point.

[DDBeast]

If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

[kleath]

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I think he's limping with trash here, I think he pushes stronger hands. That said, I definitely push pf because I don't want 95o making me fold on a flop like this.

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dont you see how this is kinda dumb though? Nobody is *making* you fold, just make the right decision. If you are going to be making bad folds a bunch then yeah you should stick it in but that's not really the point.

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In a vacuum with this chipstack it will always be very +ev to get it in preflop regardless of our hand, Most of the times we miss and still have to call we're lowering our equity we had from preflop, and the times we fold we passed up our preflop edge to do it.

[fluorescenthippo]

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If J9 is a call here, then what flops are you folding? And how can shoving pf when you're a favorite be worse than checking and folding any flop when you know he's pushing 100% of the time and it's extremely likely he has a worse starting hand?

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yea its a bad example because J9 is too good. it works better if hero has like 86o here. then we are only 19% vs atc

[DDBeast]

Another thing is, I don't think it's fair to assign Big Joe a random hand here. I think it should be heavily weighted towards hands in the lower spectrum.

[curtains]

Probably J9 is too strong, makes more sense with weaker hands like T3o etc. Basically you lose nothing by not pushing preflop, and can gain a little bit postflop if you make perfect folds against his range. Of course in the heat of the moment it's hard to do so, but theoretically it's certainly correct to not push with some of the weaker hands, and to even fold postflop in some rare situations.

That being said, you won't lose much if you never fold this type of spot.

[curtains]

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In the moment it may throw you off esp. if you're not playing many SNGs, but against a good player who knows you're a good player, not shoving PF with J9 and then folding to a push is terrible. Even on that bad board (and I say "bad" b/c of the 3 and 4 as much as the hearts) my guess is you have plenty of equity to call getting close to 3:1. I'd be surprised if he had a card higher than a ten, though it makes sense to do it with some stronger hands for the heck of it since a good player is probably going to call your complete-push too...

...unless you have like 62o or something, if you were going to call a push, it's fine to just shove PF. A good player is folding (pre-flop or postflop) after completing here about 0% of the time, why encourage them (and others watching) to make future foolio plays against you?

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I suspect that the SB should stop and go with 100% of their range for comprehensiveness reasons. In return the BB should push PF only with hands where there is almost no chance of a flop in which they cannot call an allin from the SB against any 2 cards. Also the SB should of course push the flop 100% of the time.

The point is that the SB is giving the BB a free chance to avoid a -EV spot. Depending on the BB's hand, they may want to take this option. The cool thing about it from the SB's perspective is that it helps the SB to simply give the BB a favorable option. Usually in poker it never makes sense to give your opponent a clear option to avoid losing EV, however in these types of cases it does. It's like collusion somehow! I find it very beautiful!!!!!!!