flop check

[Niediam]

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what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?

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I think given your read on villian that we need to be showdown bound.

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So what's your line?

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Check/bet/check or bet/bet/check seems best.

[Dhani]

If he tends to get out of line postflop, then why not raise the turn to see what he does, for future info. He could easily have mid suited connectors, low PP, A8s-A7s.

[Rico Suave]

James:

I like this.

But how far do would you take it?

holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone
holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone
holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone
holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone?

-rico

[James.]

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James:

I like this.

But how far do would you take it?

holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone
holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone
holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone
holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone?

-rico

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rico,

are we talking about the same opponent as in this hand?

this as much a function of your opponent as the cards in your hand and on the board(IMO).

[Rico Suave]

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James:

I like this.

But how far do would you take it?

holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone
holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone
holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone
holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone?

-rico

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rico,

are we talking about the same opponent as in this hand?


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Yes. Same laggy postflop opponent. I agree that this is as much opponent driven as card driven.

--Rico

[Niediam]

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If he tends to get out of line postflop, then why not raise the turn to see what he does, for future info. He could easily have mid suited connectors, low PP, A8s-A7s.

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Because against this type of opponent it's hard to decide if we should call down if he 3bets. Against a regular guy you fold. Against a truely crazy guy you call down. But this guy? Shrug.

[Man of Means]

With A8 and this flop I bet the flop and go to showdown. You'd have a strong enough hand that you'd welcome aggression.

But one pip less and curiously enough your line seems to instinctively be a winner. I think it's because his checkraise range is going to include enough 8's to make calling down slightly less EV. [You get folds from worse hands and action from better/neutral ones]

But obviously his bet turn/bet river range is so wide that you get action from all kinds of air and 66-22.

This is weird and I'd like to see more examples in practice.

[James.]

i'm rushing so i'm not super-sold on these but at a first glance here:

“But how far do would you take it?”

It’s not often that I do anything all of the time when I play poker. That said there is probably some frequency I could arbitrarily assign based on my usual playing style.

If I feel like a free card is something that benefits me, I prefer to take it on the turn since it’s the more expensive street. If I think the free card is something that I will give to my opponent(to let them catch up or induce action later) I give it on the flop ‘cause it’s a small street.

I’ve also ignored whether the Ahigh hands are suited/unsuited and if I have any sort of backdoor frush draws.

assuming he only calls pf:

holding AK on a Q86r: usually check

AK on a Q86 2-tone: usually check

holding AT on a J57r: usually check

AT on a J57 2-tone: usually bet

holding 44 on a K73r: usually check

44 on a K73 2 tone: usually check

holding 22 on a Q56r: meh. Both but bet more often.

22 on a Q56 2-tone: meh. Both pretty evenly.

With weak hands against a very aggressive opponent, underplaying hands(even 22 or Ahigh) can lead to a profitable call down due to the high bluffing frequency. Certain boards can increase this bluffing frequency and as such should result in even more liberal calldowns. Larger pots can increase the profitability of a call down as well, since you are getting a better price that an aggressive villain is bluffing. Of course, as always the above are subject to the “it depends”rule. In other words, if I’ve been checking a lot of flops I need to balance, if I’ve been betting a lot of flops I need to balance, etc.

[Chipspin]

If the guy isn't capable of 3-betting the turn with a draw or air, then I'd raise the turn after checking the flop. There's a strong possibility that turned 4s has given him a spade draw or a gutshot, and he'll have to call the raise. And if he 3-bets, it's an easy fold.

Additionally, the raise might fold out A8/99/TT.

If called, take a free SD.

[James.]

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If the guy isn't capable of 3-betting the turn with a draw or air, then I'd raise the turn after checking the flop. There's a strong possibility that turned 4s has given him a spade draw or a gutshot, and he'll have to call the raise. And if he 3-bets, it's an easy fold.

Additionally, the raise might fold out A8/99/TT.

If called, take a free SD.

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a significant portion of our A7s value is coming from bluff equity. raising on the turn destroys this value. in addition, he probably is capable of 3betting a worse hand on the turn and as such the table may be turned on us and not only do we lose the bluff equity we gain by calling the turn we lose a second bet and the pot the times we are bluffed off the worse hand or could have called to try to outdraw a hand we are behind with outs.

as far as folding out A8, 99 and TT goes, do you *really* think he isn't 3betting 99 and TT pf? or even A8s as far as that goes? so that leaves A8o and a discounted A8s which is relatively few combos in relation to his total hand range.

an argument can be made for betting the flop. checking the flop and raising the turn does not make much sense to me in this situation given the villain, the pot size and our holding.