X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information! - Page 2

tomek322 · #11 10-03-2007, 07:13 PM

LOL... A guy at work was telling me about a hand he played... no details cause it was boring a [censored]... but one thing I remember is him saying, "so he bet 30, and I made it 60 total for imformation... (after seeing my puzzled face)... you know, to find out where I was at"

jwrogers · #12 10-03-2007, 08:51 PM

It's not bluffing unless you think you've got the worst hand.
You can ABSOLUTELY bet for information, to find out where you stand in a hand.

BarryLyndon · #13 10-03-2007, 08:56 PM

Nice post. Can you explain to me the part about 10K in chips and 25/50 blinds again, though?

Barry

gobboboy · #14 10-03-2007, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not bluffing unless you think you've got the worst hand.
You can ABSOLUTELY bet for information, to find out where you stand in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would in fact disagree with these statements. Please see the original post.

Seriously, why would you respond to a post like this. It's like Richard Dawkins telling people why there is no god, then one person standing up and saying 'Yeah there is' with no proof or discussion given, and then what, we're supposed to say 'OH I GUESS SO, JEEZ I FEEL DUMB NOW. THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP.'

You can call it whatever you want, but 'betting for information' makes no logical sense.

BarryLyndon · #15 10-03-2007, 09:07 PM

I think that betting for information makes sense if you consider a "block bet" a bet for information in a deep enough game with reads. A "semi-bluff" can also be considered a bet for information in that while you are betting in part because you want to put more money in if you hit + you have FE, you can also gauge what your FE in a later stage of the hand depending on your opponent's reaction. For instance, knowing from your opponent's play whether he thinks you are on a draw based on the action that you start with a semi-bluff c-bet can give you information as to whether to 4-bet or to follow through the turn with a strong bet. In other words, with deep enough stacks and metgame considerations, certain bets can be considered in part to be made for information. However, making a play SOLELY for information is incorrect, IMO, and Gobbo's post is still strong (despite maintaing the tone of a frustrated high school math teacher).

Barry

mflip · #16 10-03-2007, 09:36 PM

Aren't blocking bets used to avoid being bluffed off of the best hand while getting some value out of hands that you are ahead of? That makes them a value bet.

BarryLyndon · #17 10-03-2007, 09:42 PM

Right. And when you are RRed, you can accept with more certainty that you are NOT being bluffed (that is part of why you block bet - to avoid being bluffed). If you weren't so concerned about the informational aspect of things, you wouldn't block bet - you would value bet because you were more confident that you had the best hand. In that respect, yes, a block bet is defensive and a value bet. However, it is also in part an information bet.

What I am saying is that in terms of being a flexible and creative player, there is nothing wrong with considering a bet for information AS LONG AS you are not doing it solely for information, but in part because you are considering value extractin as part of your play.

Of course, I'm not a great player, but I do try to keep an open mind about things and thought this is a fair argument.

Barry

Kimbell175113 · #18 10-03-2007, 09:55 PM

Barry,
so what's the difference between a value bet and a blocking bet? just the size? if so, you're just using that size to manipulate your opponent's calling and raising ranges. it's a very proactive thing. it's not really getting information and then reacting to it.

The fact that you made your blocking bet small enough to get called by a worse hand makes it a value bet.

You're saying that if you had bet bigger, then you would call it a "value bet" just because it looks like one, but gobbo is saying that it would be a bluff. Because it is one.

edit: cut a bunch of stuff, trying to be more concise

Cleverbeans · #19 10-03-2007, 10:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In that respect, yes, a block bet is defensive and a value bet. However, it is also in part an information bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Gobo is arguing that a bet PURELY for information is not a good enough reason, however I think you could argue that all bets provide some sort of information.

jwrogers · #20 10-03-2007, 10:45 PM

I replied because you're being a little freaky and I found it interesting. You're in an argument about semantics when, in fact, all bets are for value and for information (at the same time) or they are straight bluffs when you know you don't have the best hand.

The thing is, the ratio of value to information changes depending on the situation, and a bet for information just means that you're early enough in the hand that you don't know where you stand yet.

Now, go ahead an insult me again, because it makes you look all Poker Brat and I might enjoy that. It's good entertainment.