STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!

[LearnedfromTV]

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I agree with what you are saying but so often I call here with 99 on that 67Q board, the turn is a 3 and I get fired at again from a thinking player. Now I have no idea if he's making a move on me or if he's valuebetting QQ/AQ/KQ/KK/AA.

I agree in general that this is very bad because of the obvious reasons (folding out worse hands and better ones continue thus bloating the pot).

I just feel weak when I fold that to a second barrell and then I get an image of "nitty".

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Don't always fold to the second barrel.

But what if he third barrels?

Don't always fold to the third barrel.

[FGators]

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I agree with what you are saying but so often I call here with 99 on that 67Q board, the turn is a 3 and I get fired at again from a thinking player. Now I have no idea if he's making a move on me or if he's valuebetting QQ/AQ/KQ/KK/AA.

I agree in general that this is very bad because of the obvious reasons (folding out worse hands and better ones continue thus bloating the pot).

I just feel weak when I fold that to a second barrell and then I get an image of "nitty".

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Don't always fold to the second barrel.

But what if he third barrels?

Don't always fold to the third barrel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that; it makes it very read based, which I don't think people wnat to do...they randomly raise to see where they are at so they don't have to make difficult decisions compared to making situations that could be profitable (i.e. picking off the barrell and taking down a nice pot vs raised and folding worse hands, keeping better ones).

[gobboboy]

That's why you can just fold the flop. Or you can raise the flop as a bluff in order to stop him from bluffing the turn, but you DO NOT NEED 99 to do that.

[ASPoker8]

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Value or bluff is too simplistic.

What about pot control bets, sometimes known as blocking bets, especially on the river? How is that either a value bet or a bluff?

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blocking bets are value bets

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Blocking bets are typically used when you are unsure if you're ahead/behind, but leaning towards behind and want to keep the pot small. How is that a value bet?

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no

in fact, lol

[curtains]

You aren't only valuebetting or bluffing, sometimes you are betting to protect your hand. For instance in the 99 hand mentioned in the OP, if you think your opponent has AK and won't ever put more money in the pot if they are behind, it would be correct to raise so as to not give 6 free outs.

Note that I don't advocate raising there at all, just saying that this is theoretically a reason to raise as well. Saying that you are either valuebetting or bluffing is a bit simplistic.

[Todd Terry]

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I actually think a c-bet when you miss is a bet in which you have no idea if it is for value or as a bluff.

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That's a copout. Your opponent has a preflop calling range, and the flop texture makes him likely to fold a certain piece of that range to the bet, call without another piece, and raise with a third piece.

You decide to cbet based on how your hand compares with those pieces, and for the most part ( insofar as any pre-river bet can be classified as a value bet or a bluff, rather than varying degrees of semibluff, rather than varying degrees of semibluff), your cbet isn't a two-way bet. When it's a good bet, it usually is so because it falls into one of three categories

- folding better hands*
- getting called by worse hands
- preventing bluffs (that you can't call) from worse hands.


If it's none of these, it's a bad bet. If you aren't sure which one it is, or which one is dominant, you're being sloppy.

*including situations where most of the bluff value comes from setting up a profitable two barrel rather than getting an immediate fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent post IMO, and the bold part is one of the two points I was trying to elicit in posting the question about c-bets. The second, which you scrupulously avoided saying but I believe to be the case, is that a continuation bet is primarily a bet for information.

[tufat23]

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Value or bluff is too simplistic.

What about pot control bets, sometimes known as blocking bets, especially on the river? How is that either a value bet or a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

blocking bets are value bets

[/ QUOTE ]

Blocking bets are typically used when you are unsure if you're ahead/behind, but leaning towards behind and want to keep the pot small. How is that a value bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

in fact, lol

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what if im oop and min bet the river at u. imo this is a bet for information, and perfectly valid

[gobboboy]

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You aren't only valuebetting or bluffing, sometimes you are betting to protect your hand. For instance in the 99 hand mentioned in the OP, if you think your opponent has AK and won't ever put more money in the pot if they are behind, it would be correct to raise so as to not give 6 free outs.

Note that I don't advocate raising there at all, just saying that this is theoretically a reason to raise as well. Saying that you are either valuebetting or bluffing is a bit simplistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree strongly, there's nothing about 'protecting your hand.'

If you're betting because you think your opponent has a draw and you have more than 50% equity, you are VALUEBETTING. It does not matter what the draw is. But regardless, in the 99 hand you are NOT 'protecting your hand,' you're bluffing because you do not expect worse hands to call but it turns out if you get called by a draw that you were in fact valuebetting. If you happen to bet J9 on the flop but get called by 98, were you trying to 'protect' your jack high? No, you were bluffing and your opponent happened to have a hand that could call a bet and you were still ahead.

If your opponent has a draw, they're either correct to call you or they're not, but regardless of them being 'correct' to call you, any chips that go into the pot means you ARE gaining chips in the long run if you discount implied odds.

[ASPoker8]

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Value or bluff is too simplistic.

What about pot control bets, sometimes known as blocking bets, especially on the river? How is that either a value bet or a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

blocking bets are value bets

[/ QUOTE ]

Blocking bets are typically used when you are unsure if you're ahead/behind, but leaning towards behind and want to keep the pot small. How is that a value bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

in fact, lol

[/ QUOTE ]


what if im oop and min bet the river at u. imo this is a bet for information, and perfectly valid

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its theoretically a check [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

we're talking theory here!

[Eagles]

Todd,
As I said earlier a cbet is mainly for metagame so you can get value out of your big hands.