STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!

[gobboboy]

You are either valuebetting or you're bluffing. You can bluff with marginal hands to avoid being bluffed out and you can valuebet but fold to a raise, but for the love of god, betting for information makes NO LOGICAL SENSE. If you're out of position and you bet or check, your opponent is going to have to make some sort of action no matter what, so THAT is where you get your information from. If you're ahead of your opponent's range and think their calling range is beat by your hand, then BET FOR VALUE. If not, then check or bet to bluff them out.

EVERY BET you make should have a purpose. Either to get value out of a strong hand or bluff your opponent off a stronger hand. KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH EACH BET YOU MAKE BEFORE YOU MAKE IT.

Example:

Stacks of 10k, blinds 50/100. I make it 300 from UTG 9 handed, you call OTB with 99. Flop Q76. I bet 450. You decide to raise. Why?

1) A raise for value does not accomplish what you think unless we're thinking on the hundredth level. I'm folding all hands worse than yours and calling with a lot of better ones.

2) A bluff raise wouldn't be too bad, since I'm folding most hands worse than AQ or 98, but if I call or raise your hand is pretty much garbage.

SO MANY PEOPLE decide to put in a raise on this flop 'for information' to see if their hand is good. WHY? If he folds, whoopee, you might have had the best hand. If he calls, you don't. That's called BLUFFING. You might as well have any two cards in this spot if you are attempting to bluff. A lot of people might say "Yeah but sometimes you improve/get called by worse!" Yeah but sometimes you are retarded and manage to put in more money later against a hand that obviously has you beat too. If you make it 1600 on the flop, you just put in enough chips to call the flop AND turn if you really think I'm FOS, and then I would give you a lot more chances to really look at my bet sizing and one more card to come off before you decide if I actually have a hand.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU WANT ME TO KEEP MY SANITY STOP MAKING RETARDED BLUFFS WITHOUT REALIZE YOU ARE DOING SO.

[stealthmunk]

You are not 100% right here gobbo, but you are right in that most people have no clue why they are raising/folding and just basically randomly click buttons.

[mastr]

<3 but shhhhhhhhhhhhh

[ASPoker8]

"Raise to find out where you are at"

tilts me so hard

[NYWalker]

[ QUOTE ]
"Raise to find out where you are at"


[/ QUOTE ]

some players (even good players) go from "raise to find out where we are at" to pot committed, to being forced to make bad bluff with marginal hand. This is so true when such "raise to find out information" move runs into "bet for value" of a better hand.

[pdjplano]

[ QUOTE ]
You are either valuebetting or you're bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]
in your definitions, is a bet that is made when you believe you have the best hand but want to make draws pay a value bet?

i.e.

[ QUOTE ]
Stacks of 10k, blinds 50/100. I make it 300 from UTG 9 handed, you call OTB with 99. Flop Q76. I bet 450. You decide to raise. Why?

1) A raise for value does not accomplish what you think unless we're thinking on the hundredth level. I'm folding all hands worse than yours and calling with a lot of better ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

so if i raise here because I believe you are on say some draw / over type hand, is that a bluff in your definition or a value bet or a third type of bet not detailed?

say i don't immediately give credit to the lead bet as a AA/KK/Qx/77/66/76. do i just make a call here b/c the "information" i need comes on the next street and if i raise that has to be a bluff or value bet only?

i'm not really thrilled with my 99 if a A, K, J or even T come on the turn, am I. so isn't raising the potential c-bet a value raise or what?

i'm not convinced that people are folding *ALL* worse hands than mine should I raise as you claim. is that wrong?

thanks.

[gobboboy]

If you believe that you have the best hand and you get called when you are ahead, then that's valuebetting in my definition.

However, raising on that flop because you want to fold out better hands and hands that have significant equity against you IS a bluff because they will never call with a worse hand and you don't expect them to.

[Todd Terry]

Is a continuation bet where you missed the flop (redundant under Harrington's definition, I know) a value bet or a bluff?

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
<3 but shhhhhhhhhhhhh

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL we better not discuss basic strategy that anyone decent at poker already knows.

edit: Not saying its a bad post gobbo just I think you aren't really giving away some awesome secret info.

[mastr]

irony is lost on the masses