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Old 07-13-2007, 09:22 PM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Why people do not believe in libertarianism

Self-righteousness.

The beauty of classical liberalism is its simplicity. Belief in it does not require creative and self glorifying solution.

People who believe in the free market will point to lack of understanding as the reason many oppose it. I agree, but I think it's more that people *don't want to* believe it even if they're capable of it. For self-righteous reasons. They want to be the guy with the solution. People want to feel like their ideas matter. And when you hold the "position" that the market takes care of itself, you effectively eliminate your opportunity to be the hero who figured everything out.

And I'm not really talking about the politicians and the hack journalists. They'll mislead you but they don't necessarily believe what they're saying. Joe Shmoe believes what he says.

People care about government. People talk about government. Joe Shmoe wants to feel like his ideas about something as important as government are superior. He graduated with a fancy political science degree, HE HAS SOLUTIONS. HE'S AN IMPORTANT MEMBER OF SOCIETY WITH IMPORTANT IDEAS. He didn't pay $130K to come to realize that he should accept the fact that he can't manipulate the market. So he'll never accept it until it's smacking him in the face.

If there's any way to believe it isn't true, he will find ways to believe it isn't true.

The market to me is like gravity. You can't touch it. Socialists talk about "capitalism" like some dude invented it in a lab. Capitalism is just a natural force of efficiency. You can choose to restrict it if you're a pussy or an [censored], but don't lie to me about blatant truths and expect me to have a reasonable discussion with you.

Fortunately, gravity is hard to reject. The ones who did all fell over the cliff. But if people could plausibly reject it in lieu of their own ideas, they would. And they'd spend their time, effort, and money finding new and creative ways to apply force on air born objects at roughly -9.8 meters per second. The fact that they could just do nothing and get an equal or slightly better result would not fly well with people who think they are more important than the natural order of our existence.


I mean, I'm not "for capitalism" in the sense that I care much about money or associate much with people in suits. But how can you deny the blatantly obvious? Is your desire to personally solve the world's problems *that* important to you?

Trust gravity. If you jump, you will come down. Get over yourself. You're not that important. You can't fly.

I think the desire to affect our world is probably a natural human yearning though. I wish people would redirect this desire to a personal level, and trust that the impact will be made. Just work hard if you want to affect the world. Open a pizza shop and sell people delicious pizza.

Oh wait. That takes effort. But whining about which laws are good and bad and who is right and wrong is easy, and makes us sound smart. And it proves to everyone how good our ideas are, which is more noble than cooking a tasty pizza. I forgot.


Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 07-13-2007, 09:34 PM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

yeah, that's about it
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  #3  
Old 07-13-2007, 11:43 PM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:47 PM
GoodCallYouWin GoodCallYouWin is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

"It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal. "

Easy to assert, impossible to prove?
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:12 AM
bobman0330 bobman0330 is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

This is one of the longest and (ironically) most self-righteous ad hominem arguments I've seen posted here.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2007, 12:25 AM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the longest and (ironically) most self-righteous ad hominem arguments I've seen posted here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? The post takes the assumption that the foundation and extensions of libertarianism are "right" or whatever you want to call it, sure, and I guess I should have stated that my purpose wasn't to discuss the merits of that here, but rather just to assume it is the case to discuss an extension of that with like-minded posters.

I happen to believe a lot of people don't necessarily disagree with classically liberal values or with any extensions of those values, but do not choose to support the ideology anyways, so it's a natural question to wonder what it is that prevents that. I think it's an interesting subject to explore.

If you don't like libertarianism, fine, this discussion is of no interest to you.

EDIT: Oh wow nice edit with the irony thing. How long did it take you to come up with such a clever little zinger like that?

The fact that you interpret this post as an ad hominem attack says a lot. If you have any thoughts as to whether natural self glorification can lead to a dislike of laissez faire policy, feel free to share.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2007, 12:43 AM
bobman0330 bobman0330 is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

As I understand it, here's your methodology:
Step 1 - assume that you're right (fair)
Step 2 - assume that most people know that you're right, but disagree with you for some reason
Step 3 - come up with a long, pop-psych explanation, supported by no evidence whatsoever, that just happens to conclude that people who disagree with you are delusional [censored].

Do you wonder why I'm skeptical? (I'm not hostile to traditional libertarianism, btw.)
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2007, 12:52 AM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

[ QUOTE ]
"It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal. "

Easy to assert, impossible to prove?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a theoretical basis, impossible to prove or disprove. On an empirical basis, unless societies consistently act irrationally, examples are numerous and counter-examples rare or non-existent.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2007, 12:54 AM
bobman0330 bobman0330 is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

On further reflection, the reason I hate this argument is that it's just the sort of thing people come up with to avoid having to scrutinize their own beliefs. You see it all the time (X is just greedy, Y is godless and wants to destroy family values, Z hates America). I mentioned already that there seems to be no factual support for your theory? Why did you settle on one that makes your opponents completely wrong (and morally bad and lazy to boot)? Is it because it would make you uncomfortable if people disagreed with you in complete good faith and on a purely rational basis?

It could be that you're right, and the favorers of big government are just bitter about spending a lot on a college education. Even if that's true, so what? You still need to confront them on their arguments. And if you're wrong, you're just deluding yourself into avoiding having to question your own position. Seems like a losing bet.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2007, 01:06 AM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism

Bob,

For the final time, the point of this thread is not to question the legitimacy of whether I'm "right." I'm not gonna explore it because that's not what I'm talking about here. Like I said, I should have stated that. If I could go back and edit the post I'd put a big giant disclaimer up there that says that.

It's great to question your beliefs, and if you want to go through my posting history you'll realize that I'm far from a rar-rar libertarian or ACer.

This conversation is not worth having. Like I said, if you have any thoughts as to whether a person's natural bias of self-importance can lead to an aversion to laissez faire government, then feel free to share them. Otherwise, ignore the OP if you dislike it like it so much. Don't let it bother you.

EDIT: I admit I used strong language if that makes you feel better, Bob. I wouldn't have phrased stuff so brashly if the point of my post was actually to discuss the merits of libertarianism, as you seem to wish it was. The point was to assume *if* libertarianism is something most people will come to embrace (as many people on this board think is the case) then what obstacles are faced. Given the point of my post, obviously I will have to assume libertarianism's assumptions to get anywhere.
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