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#31
10-04-2007, 03:45 PM
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Re: X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You are not betting FOR information. You gain information no matter what you do. As Gobbo said, you are betting either for value or as a bluff. The information is secondary and not the reason for the decision. [/ QUOTE ] Firstly, as I suggested you get more information, cheaper, if you do raise. If you call and your opponent fires again what do you do? You can either snap off a bluff and win some chips instead of making all the bad parts of your opponent's range fold on the flop, or you can get away on the turn without paying more on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you play really badly on the turn, then this line is more +EV than raising the flop, imo. 
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#32
10-04-2007, 04:09 PM
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Re: X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!
This is a really important thread for novices like me. Thanks.
So where does this leave us with probe bets? I have been trying to apply Harrington's concept of the probe bet, and I thought I was doing it almost exclusively for information-gathering purposes. From HOH v. 1 (p. 282): "A probe bet is similar to a continuation bet, but it is made when you were not the leader before the flop, but the leader has declined to make a move after the flop. A probe bet gives you a chance to win the pot immediately, but also helps define your hand by forcing the leader to make a play, either folding, calling or raising. Depending on his response, you'll have a clearer idea of how to play the hand. ..... I like my probe bets to be a little smaller than my continuation bets, since I'm starting from a weaker position..... Anywhere from 30 percent to 50 percent of the pot is a good range." FWIW, I haven't found probe bets to be very effective, and I don't find them particularly information-forcing. But I may be misunderstanding some of these concepts.
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#33
10-04-2007, 04:11 PM
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Re: X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!
[ QUOTE ]
I said this in HSMTT, but I'll say it again here. You can call a bet whatever you want, but the fact is there are only three types of bets. 1) Bets with a positive expectation 2) Bets with a negative expectation 3) Bets with a zero expectation And I think Gobbo's point is that so-called "bets for information" tend to be bets with a negative expectation. Sherman [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly what I was realized when trying to group some situations where word classifications don't apply so well. (eg: a lot of pf raising situations when deep)
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#34
10-04-2007, 04:11 PM
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Re: X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You are not betting FOR information. You gain information no matter what you do. As Gobbo said, you are betting either for value or as a bluff. The information is secondary and not the reason for the decision. [/ QUOTE ] Firstly, as I suggested you get more information, cheaper, if you do raise. If you call and your opponent fires again what do you do? You've put no pressure on them, shown no strength so you have no further information about whether they are betting their KQ for value, or firing a second barrel with their AJ. If you raise on the flop you get that information. If you play aggresively early, you get that information more quickly, and you have a much better idea on how to play subsequent (more expensive) streets. [/ QUOTE ] You are missing the point of my herein referenced post. The information comes secondary to the decision to fold check or bet.
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#35
10-04-2007, 04:22 PM
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Re: X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [Firstly, as I suggested you get more information, cheaper, if you do raise. If you call and your opponent fires again what do you do? You can either snap off a bluff and win some chips instead of making all the bad parts of your opponent's range fold on the flop, or you can get away on the turn without paying more on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Unless you play really badly on the turn, then this line is more +EV than raising the flop, imo. [/ QUOTE ] All this is opponent and situation dependent of course, but you are basically saying either your opponent will bet again on the turn and you can raise if you are ahead, or he will bet again on the turn and you can fold if you are behind. The problem is you don't have much more information to go on here. Is he firing a second barrel or does he have a hand? How do you know if you are ahead or behind? If he's going to check/fold on the turn you'd have won with a flop raise anyway, and if he bets again on the turn after your flop raise he is showing a LOT of strength. I still think raising here makes all subsequent decisions easier (raising for information).
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#36
10-04-2007, 04:32 PM
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Re: X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!
[ QUOTE ]
From HOH v. 1 (p. 282): "A probe bet is similar to a continuation bet, but it is made when you were not the leader before the flop, but the leader has declined to make a move after the flop. A probe bet gives you a chance to win the pot immediately, but also helps define your hand by forcing the leader to make a play, either folding, calling or raising. Depending on his response, you'll have a clearer idea of how to play the hand. ..... [/ QUOTE ] That would be a bet for information [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I'm totally betting for info more.
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