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Old 04-02-2006, 03:07 AM
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Default Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

I hope this post has some value and creates some discussion

I was wondering about the frequency of CheckRaising and Raising on the river in higher stakes 6 max games (i.e. 20/40 to 100/200), versus the lower level games (10/20, 5/10, 2/5..)

I have noticed through playing and observing that there seems to be a higher frequency of raising the river (through a CR or a flat raise) in the higher limit 6 max games. Also, there may even be a higher frequency of bet/calling as opposed to check/checking.

Anyway, if this the case, I was thinking about what might be some of the reasons for this, and I was wondering if you people could weigh-in with your thoughts.


Possible reasons for higher frequency of river CR or raises at higher limit 6max.

1. There are fewer passive players at higher limits, and this = more river aggression (or perhaps more “correct” river aggression )
2. Players at higher levels (on average) have better hand and board reading skills, and are therefore able to assess with a greater level of confidence where they “are” relative to their opponents. As such, they are less shy about value raising than lesser skilled players who, through uncertainty, may choose to “call down” more often as opposed to raising the river.
3. Players at higher levels have (on average) better and deeper post flop skills. While some weaker players may make moves on the flop that will enable a certain turn play, they may not be able to plan or think how such plays impact the river play. On the flipside, stronger players at higher limits have more complex strategies that are more likely to set the table for river raises. (I perhaps didn’t articulate this well, but I’m thinking the better players are move prone to be thinking about the river with their flop action, while weaker players may just be thinking about the turn).
4. This one may seem like a paradox, but I think the extra river raising at higher limits creates opportunities for more river bluffs. It seems that at 5/10 and 10/20 players will call down river raises more often than in higher limits, and this would suggest that river bluffs would occur less frequently at lower limits. However, if the river raise action becomes more frequent in higher limits for some of the reasons noted above, would this not also allow room for more bluffs (more opportunities to find favorable situations to bluff)? If so, oddly enough, this would cause the frequency of river raises to go even higher. Or, am I missing it here and the fact is there is less river raise bluffing at higher limits?

Any thoughts or discussion on the above would be appreciated. I’d really be interested in what factors others see at play in cases where river raising and check raising seems more frequent at higher limits. I particularly notice the shift starting at 30/60, and from watching 100/200 it seems even higher.

PS. I suspect some posters might say it’s simply a function of higher aggression at higher limits, and not much more….
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Old 04-02-2006, 03:23 AM
sweetjazz sweetjazz is offline
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

Good post! Hope to see more posts from you around here.

[ QUOTE ]
1. There are fewer passive players at higher limits, and this = more river aggression (or perhaps more “correct” river aggression )

[/ QUOTE ]

This probably is a slight factor, but it doesn't really explain what's going on.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Players at higher levels (on average) have better hand and board reading skills, and are therefore able to assess with a greater level of confidence where they “are” relative to their opponents. As such, they are less shy about value raising than lesser skilled players who, through uncertainty, may choose to “call down” more often as opposed to raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes sometimes a player gets a better idea of where he stands by putting together the pieces of what has happened so far in the hand. In particular, he may suspect the most likely holding for an opponent is a worse hand that will pay off a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Players at higher levels have (on average) better and deeper post flop skills. While some weaker players may make moves on the flop that will enable a certain turn play, they may not be able to plan or think how such plays impact the river play. On the flipside, stronger players at higher limits have more complex strategies that are more likely to set the table for river raises. (I perhaps didn’t articulate this well, but I’m thinking the better players are move prone to be thinking about the river with their flop action, while weaker players may just be thinking about the turn).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely a big factor. Sometimes you want to keep an opponent in and not try to get value out of your hand until the pot is bloated where he is more likely to look you up.

[ QUOTE ]
4. This one may seem like a paradox, but I think the extra river raising at higher limits creates opportunities for more river bluffs. It seems that at 5/10 and 10/20 players will call down river raises more often than in higher limits, and this would suggest that river bluffs would occur less frequently at lower limits. However, if the river raise action becomes more frequent in higher limits for some of the reasons noted above, would this not also allow room for more bluffs (more opportunities to find favorable situations to bluff)? If so, oddly enough, this would cause the frequency of river raises to go even higher. Or, am I missing it here and the fact is there is less river raise bluffing at higher limits?

[/ QUOTE ]

All my comments are based on only having played up to 20/40. At these limits, there is still a lot of river calling, so I haven't really added profitable river bluffs into my repertoire. The hard thing about river bluffs is that they might be very profitable in the right spot (maybe it works once every 5 times getting 12 to 1 to try it), but you don't want to be finding yourself too often in these spots. The point is that you are trying to get to the river with the best hand, at least most of the time. It is not generally profitable in limit HE to make elaborate multistreet plays to set up a bluff. If you are consistently getting paid off on your good hands, then you don't need to add bluffs. But as players start to make more folds, you need to add a few more bluffs to either steal some pots or force them to revert to paying you off when you value bet.
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Old 04-02-2006, 03:42 AM
Surf Surf is offline
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

hey motorholdem,

This is an interesting question. I think one important point is that there is more pure bluff-raising , in general, at higher limits (i've only palyed up to 20/40 party) and more continuation-bluffing. Both of these will lead to more river aggression - both from players waiting until the river to pop a strong hand vs a habitual bettor, and from aggressive(both good and bad) players pulling some pure river bluffs.

I'm interested in hearing thoughts from posters who have played 30/60 and 50/100+.

Surf
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Old 04-02-2006, 03:56 AM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

people make more folds at high limits making bluffraising rivers more profitable

players are aggressive at higher limits. the fish are the ones that are usually too aggressive. at lower limits the fish are passive players who checkcall alot

players at higher limits are better value bettors and as a result, better value raisers.

players at higher limits know that if theyre going to value raise rivers, theyre probably going to need to value raise mediocre hands as well along with bluffs to balance their play.

i dont really think this thread is too complicated. people play better in bigger games. thats about it. i guess reviewing why bluffraising rivers happens itll give players a better perception of what hand ranges high limit players have when they raise rivers along with figuring out what hands they need to raise rivers with themselves.

for that reason i suppose this thread could lead to good strategical content but this thread would be more purposeful if you changed the question to "what hands should you raise the river with in higher limits and what are the advantages of doing so?" rather than asking the question you asked, because frankly i think its quite basic.

dont mean to tear you down, this thread will probably help alot of people.
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Old 04-02-2006, 04:41 AM
Dan BRIGHT Dan BRIGHT is offline
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

dont forget the scared money factor. you gotta love the scared money at the 50+ games
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Old 04-02-2006, 04:48 AM
sweetjazz sweetjazz is offline
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

[ QUOTE ]
dont forget the scared money factor. you gotta love the scared money at the 50+ games

[/ QUOTE ]

Scared money online??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I figured that most people value the digital images of chips as much as candy coins.

Edit: Mmmmmmmm, candy coins.
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Old 04-02-2006, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

[ QUOTE ]
dont mean to tear you down, this thread will probably help alot of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem. I was mostly looking to see if my observation was correct - that river raises do occur at more often at higher limits. And if so, had I pegged some of the right possible reasons.

Thx Tstone
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Old 04-02-2006, 01:32 PM
Victor Victor is offline
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Default Re: Why is there more River Raising at Higher Limit 6max???

river raises are bc ppl are more aggro. raises are also more common *gasp* preflop, flop and turn for the same reason.
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