End game math decision w/T9s 5 handed as big stack

franknagaijr · #1 08-12-2007, 02:40 PM

Couldn't get a single hand converter to work today.

We're the last 5 out of of 16 players in a private 2 table tourney. I've played with the two players involved often enough to know that they understand tournament theory, and their pushing and calling ranges have amplified for the end game.

Also, there is a bountyon SB's head, but I did not take a piece of the bounty pool. The original raiser did. The bounty amount is worth slightly more than 2nd place in the tournament.

With that knowledge, and stack sizes, what is the correct play with this hand and this action?

Seat 1: WillFold2 (2520 in chips)
Seat 2: BountyonMyhead (1590 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero (14525 in chips)
Seat 4: WillFold1 (2300 in chips)
Seat 6: GimmeTheBounty (3065 in chips)

dealt to hero 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Blinds 200/400, 25 ante - so 725 in pot. Stacks above reflect pre-posting numbers.

Seat 4 folds
GimmeTheBounty raises 800 to 1200
Seat 1 folds
Bountyonmy Headraises 365 to 1565 and is all-in
Hero...?

Hero needs to put in 1165 to call and effectively close the action. Gimme the bounty will have 1475 behind, assuming a call of the 365 raise.

franknagaijr · #2 08-13-2007, 09:46 AM

Bump. I assume this is a trivially easy call? Some of my regulars disagreed, so I was looking for an outside opinion.

sixfour · #3 08-13-2007, 09:53 AM

How many places pay and what payout structure? It looks like an easy shove.

franknagaijr · #4 08-13-2007, 10:09 AM

3 places pay, 50%, 30%, 20%.

You like a shove better than a flat call here? I hadn't thought of that....

ymu · #5 08-13-2007, 10:38 AM

It's not a call - push and get the original raiser AI or make him fold.

Any clues as to why he raised 3x with 7.5BB instead of shoving?

E2A: just worked out what you meant about the bounty - he can win it but you can't. Could he have been trying to isolate SB ithout risking his stack against you if SB didn't get involved? If you win the hand and knock them both out, does he get the bounty or is it void?

franknagaijr · #6 08-13-2007, 10:45 AM

I cannot explain original raiser not shoving. The hand he had was AJs, so it was a pretty clear push/fold decision. If he had shoved instead of 3bb, should that affect my decision here, or is it still a clear call?

Yes, if I call, I'm getting 4 to 1 on the last of original raisers chips, so a push does make sense, since there's a reasonable chance I've got at least one over.

ymu · #7 08-13-2007, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot explain original raiser not shoving. The hand he had was AJs, so it was a pretty clear push/fold decision. If he had shoved instead of 3bb, should that affect my decision here, or is it still a clear call?

Yes, if I call, I'm getting 4 to 1 on the last of original raisers chips, so a push does make sense, since there's a reasonable chance I've got at least one over.

[/ QUOTE ]
The raise is just weird - it makes me think that I either have a lot more FE than I ought to or absolutely none at all because he has AA.

It's an ICM problem so you need his range for a shove and SBs range for calling AI, but I think you can call pretty loose because your stack is so deep, you'll still have a decent chip lead if you lose to the larger of the two shorties, and because if you win it's straight to ITM with a very high chance of taking 1st.

typically · #8 08-13-2007, 11:36 AM

He's got about half his stack in and huge odds, counting the bounty. I can't imagine having much FE here... Still I like the push, since it's almost certain all the chips are going in anyways, and as has been said your cards are likely to be live, you'll be in great shape if you manage to knock them both out, and you will still be in good shape otherwise.

ymu · #9 08-13-2007, 12:16 PM

I agree - we shouldn't have any FE here and we can push without it.

It's just that he made a very very weird move and it's not a bad idea to stop and think about why. I think we would have some FE post-flop if we just called, so it's not necessarily exactly zero preflop - especially if he was trying to aim for SB without risking all against us. The dynamic between him and SB, and generally with the table, would be a useful read.

franknagaijr · #10 08-13-2007, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree - we shouldn't have any FE here and we can push without it.

It's just that he made a very very weird move and it's not a bad idea to stop and think about why. I think we would have some FE post-flop if we just called, so it's not necessarily exactly zero preflop - especially if he was trying to aim for SB without risking all against us. The dynamic between him and SB, and generally with the table, would be a useful read.

[/ QUOTE ]

The economic dynamic bears repeating. If bounty outlasts the last two hunters, bounty gets a prize worth slightly more than 2nd prize. If bounty is knocked out by a non-bounty hunter (including big stack), then it becomes a last-longer between the two hunters.

Neither the raiser or the bounty had been in the habit of making blind-steal moves with weak hands.

The raisers fuzzy logic may have been a desire to isolate the bounty and push away the big stack without getting into trouble if big stack wakes up with a hand, but with the present stack sizes, it seems like the raiser has to choose push or fold here.