PLO8 STT Harringtonian Question - What is foldable here?

[franknagaijr]

Single table PLO8 tournament, top three get prizes, fourth gets zip. Chip stacks as follows:
Blinds: 200/400

UTG: T798
Button: T10915
SB: T2682
BB: T2105

UTG goes all in, button flat calls.

Q1) With what range of hands can SB reasonably call mathematically?
Q2) If SB folds, with what range of hands should BB call with?

[bbartlog]

To answer the question I think you need to know the payout schedule for top three places.
Funny problem though. My first thought is that the calling range should be narrow; just preserve chips and let Button take on UTG. But SB and BB should really not want UTG to win this hand (if he does, his stack is suddenly almost as big as theirs), so the second thought is that the range should be very wide just to maximize the chance of eliminating him.
I think if I'm SB I call with any AWxx, ALxxs, any four high cards, or high pocket pair plus two wheel cards. If SB folds BB should call with anything except trips. Just my intuition though, no hard analysis to back that up. Maybe SB should also be calling with any 4.

[wallenborn]

UTGs shoving range is going to be very wide here, as is BTNs calling range. This means, if SB folds, BB should want to see a flop with any above-average holding. SB has more to lose. A preflop call and fold on the flop, and an UTG win would waste SBs very good position. With BB still to act, i think SBs range should be tight and shouldn't include longshots, i would not look for suited aces or pairs. In my opinion, SB should play any Ace with two wheel cards, and fold the rest.

[PorkPieHat]

Was this a pts tourney on UB a couple of nights ago by any chance?

Anyway, if button is smart, you can call here with almost anything reasonably coordinated and expect to check down to the end. I'd say any 3 low, any 2 wheels, any pair, etc.

[franknagaijr]

[ QUOTE ]
Was this a pts tourney on UB a couple of nights ago by any chance?

Anyway, if button is smart, you can call here with almost anything reasonably coordinated and expect to check down to the end. I'd say any 3 low, any 2 wheels, any pair, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, this was a private tourney on Stars. (dkbluesky.com).

Follow-up question - Should big stack have a fairly tight range of calling hands against the initial bet, with the idea of 'divide and conquer', or is it reasonable for big stack to play anything less than trips/quads?

[Gone Forever]

What's up, Frank? Haven't seen you around in a while.

Are the stack sizes you posted before or after the SB and BB posted their blinds?

If it's after, I think every person should call and hope to check this down to the river in hopes of eliminating. They should call with almost any hand as well.

If it's before, I think the SB could get away with folding all but premium hands because he'll have the button next hand.

This game is going to turn into a crap shoot real quick anyway. In fact, it's pretty much already there. Whether UTG wins this hand or not it really doesn't change the fact that everybody besides the button has less than 4 times around the tables before they're blinded out. That's less than 16 hands.

The shorter stacks calling and losing to the shortest stack really has no effect on their situation. Essentially they'd be going from Screwed to Screwed. There really is no difference. They should be pushing with a lot of hands right now. It's the same group of hands they'll need to be pushing after calling and losing.

If UTG did end up winning wouldn't it still have been better to run three hands against him than one?

[franknagaijr]

[ QUOTE ]
What's up, Frank? Haven't seen you around in a while.

Are the stack sizes you posted before or after the SB and BB posted their blinds?


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point: These were before numbers, so the accurate stack sizes as of posting were:
UTG: T798
Button: T10915 (798 to call)
SB: T2482 (598 to call)
BB: T1705 (398 to call)

As played,Big Stack called with trash, SB and BB both chose to fold their trash, and short stack scooped with nothing special and went on to take second.

Wassup GF! I've barely had time to lurk lately.

[Truthiness24]

I think that this is very player-dependent. It also depends on whether you're playing to cash or playing to win.

If the payout is 5/3/2, then there is less incentive to play to win and your calling range is less. It's just too hard a hill to climb against the big stack IMO. But let's look at the choices anyway.

UTG has a wide range to shove with, and the big stack has a wide range to call with. There are certain players (blue, gogo) that would check this down with anything except the nuts from the button. Against that kind of player you can flat-call with any reasonable hand to see the flop from the BB. You can also do this from the SB depending on who the BB is. If the BB is mousey and afraid to get involved I'd be more inclined to flat-call from SB (the same range as from BB) with about a top 1/3 range of hands. Otherwise, I think you call with top 10% from SB and top 1/3 from BB.

But if the big stack is someone aggressive (gator & pork come first to mind) then my range is very narrow from either blind and I'm looking for a stop-and-go kind of play if I play at all.

If you're feeling really frisky you can go over the top -- some of the weaker players will fold to a push over the top from the button. Given stack sizes a fold seems unlikely, and this sort of unnecessary aggression is -EV in this spot.

[BradleyT]

I'm suprised the button didn't shove. If this were a $6.50 he only loses $.82 (4% equity) when UTG happens to win. And if UTG happens to win, the button can [continue] to steal the blinds since now everyone is between 4 and 6 big blinds and nobody wants 4th when everyone is so close in chips.

Also, when UTG wins the hand the two other stacks lose HUGE amounts of equity (up to 20%!!!!) and therefore they should be calling very liberally in order to knock the short stack out. Not only do they lose huge amounts of immediate equity just in chip values, they lose huge amounts of future equity from the big stacks blind stealing (which may or may not be the case - this particular big stack sounds like a pansy).

In this situation BB should be calling with any 4 cards (except quads or something like 9992). Reducing UTGs chances from 50% (or more) down to 33% is huge huge huge. Not to mention that if the BB gets a favorable flop or turn or river he can shove and win a T5000 pot which really gives him a shot at 1st.


To solve these types of questions you should play around with ICM a bit. You'll find that when you're 2nd or 3rd in chips and only have about 2x the amount of chips of the short stack you should want him eliminated very badly. And usually adding 1 caller to the hand reduces their chance of winning from 50% to 33% but does not proportionally increase their $$$$ EV. Of course some consideration needs to be given to how much it is to call and how many chips that will leave you with if you lose.

[Truthiness24]

Some players are just soft and don't consider any of that. Button might be content to call, bring in a straggler or two, and ensure that he is ITM. I know it sounds strange, but people really do think that way.