I must learn...

BitterChris · #1 09-26-2007, 07:28 PM

... to shove the turn, so the river can't burn.

I think I have been trying to extract value to much instead of taking the pot down, and getting rivered. After all, noone complains about getting turned, right?

First hand, blind steal gone right then horribly wrong (I know the steal may not have been a great idea) - all of opponents bets were almost instant, and thought that if he was bluffing the flop the I was still good on the turn, and continued that logic on the river:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1000 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t7031)
MP2 (t31188)
CO (t10255)
Hero? (t22582)
SB (t25392)
BB (t25014)
UTG (t46314)
UTG+1 (t10249)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero? raises to t3000, 1 fold, BB calls t2000.

Flop: (t5700) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t2000, Hero? calls t2000.

Turn: (t9700) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t5000, Hero? calls t5000.

River: (t19700) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t14914 (All-In), Hero? calls t12482 (All-In).

Final Pot: t44664

Second hand - opponent had been playing extremely tight (on the verge of rockish but not quite) and had just become one of the chipleaders:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 (t5895)
MP3 (t15038)
CO (t3820)
Button (t37082)
SB (t6100)
Hero? (t10620)
UTG (t20557)
UTG+1 (t28241)
MP1 (t27680)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
6 folds, Button raises to t900, 1 fold, Hero? calls t600.

Flop: (t1700) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero? checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t1700) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero? checks, Button bets t1200, Hero? calls t1200.

River: (t4100) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero? checks, Button bets t2100, Hero? calls t2100.

Final Pot: t8300

-- Bitterness is bliss

tomek322 · #2 09-26-2007, 08:33 PM

1st hand, I muck the turn...

2nd hand, I think is fine...

cheburashka · #3 09-26-2007, 09:31 PM

I would fold hand 1 pre-flop, but if you insist on playing it, what is your plan? Is it a pure blind steal that you will abandon if unsuccessful? If not, what flops are you hoping to hit and play with? The odds of hitting a flush are 15:1 against, and your stack allows you to pick up only 7:1, so playing for a flush makes no sense. Presumably, then, hitting a pair was part of your plan. So having hit top pair, why on earth would you not raise the [censored] out of this flop? If you think you have the best hand now, take it down now, as further cards are a lot more likely to benefit villain than you; if you think you are beat, fold, as you are very unlikely to catch up. The flop call makes absolutely no sense to me.

I'll defer to Tomek on hand two, as he is pretty sensible. But honestly, I don't get your passive play here either--if you think your king is good, bet it and make villain pay to draw his flush. In fact, I'd try to take down the pot now, as there is a 50% chance that one of the flushes will hit, and you'll have no way to know if villain is bluffing or not when he hits.

JoeyJoJo Shabadu · #4 09-26-2007, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1st hand, I muck the turn...

2nd hand, I think is fine...

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd hand is not fine... you have to raise that turn. You're right. Protect your hand, get value, find out where you're at etc etc. And don't c/r the turn and give him odds to a flush.

BrandiFan · #5 09-26-2007, 10:03 PM

raise flop first hand, raise turn second hand.

tomek322 · #6 09-26-2007, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2nd hand is not fine... you have to raise that turn. You're right. Protect your hand, get value, find out where you're at etc etc. And don't c/r the turn and give him odds to a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok... so we CRAI? This can't possibly be the optimal way to play this. High risk/low reward... kinda the problem with playing marginal hands OOP. Maybe leading the turn? But than we c/c the river anyway, so what is the difference?

I personally don't care if i give him a free card to the flush. He misses way more than he makes. And c/c two street usually gets you two streets of bluff value.

Stop being results oriented, just because he got the flush on this hand. Next week someone will post a similar when they run into AK in a similar situation. And everyone will say you should of c/c for pot control.

ssnyc · #7 09-26-2007, 10:12 PM

muck hand one...as played raise flop...
hand two...bet out first on the turn..by check calling you have no idea where you stand and you have let your opponent dictate the action...as played call river though not sure you beat a whole lot

BrandiFan · #8 09-26-2007, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raise flop first hand, lead turn second hand.

[/ QUOTE ]fmp misread position