NL25 nice draw in position, rather big turn bet, call ok?

[WantToLearn]

Ok, I am not sure wether or not my turn call was a good idea. I didn´t precisely have the immidiate odds to call, but I figured that I might have the implied odds.

<u>Reads:</u> villian really is a new kid on the block. Very first impression indicates that he might be sLAG preflop and probably too agressive postflop.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($23.45)
UTG+1 ($23.50)
MP1 ($5.35)
MP2 ($29.75)
Hero ($27.95)
Button ($4.60)
SB ($27.15)
BB ($45.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

<font color="blue"> This is a table were there are a lot of multiway limped pots. I am not very much afraid of a raise behind me. </font>

Flop: ($1.35) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $1.75</font>, Hero calls $1.75, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls $1.75.

Turn: ($6.60) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $6</font>, Hero calls $6, MP1 folds.

River: ($18.60) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $21.75 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $-3.15

[AlexB182]

Raise PF, as played raise flop. Turn call is bad IMO as I do not agree that you do have a lot of implied odds. Though a J and a T could win you the hand, every diamond would pretty sure kill your action.

[WantToLearn]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF,

[/ QUOTE ]

Would that also be true if the table were so loose that a flop c-bet virtualy never takes it down?

[diebitter]

Well, just ask yourself if you're put in that spot a million times, will you end up a lot richer or a lot poorer?


Personally, I think it was too steep, as you'll probably not be able to extract any more if a diamond hits (and indeed you might be behind a bigger flush draw anyway) - or at least not enough to make the call profitable as part of your 9-diamond/2 jack/3 ten outs.

[AlexB182]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF,

[/ QUOTE ]

Would that also be true if the table were so loose that a flop c-bet virtualy never takes it down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it is NEVER (what is really rare IMO) possible to take down the pot with a CB, I still think it is worth the raise here.
Advantage 1: You get more money in the pot and when you hit really good, you might be able to take down a big pot.
Advantage 2: If it is really impossible to take down the pot it will (at least very often) give you the chance to take a free card on the flop because it is often checked around to the PF raiser. Say flop comes like Ax Jx 9d. You could either bet out or taking a free card as every Q, every 8, every diamond and of course every J or T would give you a pretty good hand/draw...

[WantToLearn]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if it is NEVER (what is really rare IMO) possible to take down the pot with a CB, I still think it is worth the raise here.
Advantage 1: You get more money in the pot and when you hit really good, you might be able to take down a big pot.
Advantage 2: If it is really impossible to take down the pot it will (at least very often) give you the chance to take a free card on the flop because it is often checked around to the PF raiser. Say flop comes like Ax Jx 9d. You could either bet out or taking a free card as every Q, every 8, every diamond and of course every J or T would give you a pretty good hand/draw...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well these advantages are real, I agree.
When I say "flop c-bet never takes it down" I mean almost never. This happens often at very loose tables. (Do you play a lot higher than NL25?)

So, putting fold equity aside, how many pots do you think I will win in the end, making the winner w/ a straight or a flush? One in ten, maybe?
See, if I make a preflop raise to say $1.5, that is 5BB more expensive than limping. So, if I win one pot in ten, this pot must be 50 BB larger on average just to make raising break-even compared to limping. I don´t think that is possible. More so, if I win say 75 BB from someone who´s slowplaying his flopped set or his top two pair, that is 15 times my inital investment if I raise to say 5 BB but it´s 75 times my initial investment if I limp.

Same hand at a regular table (some fold equity), I want to raise as well.

[RapidEvolution]

With three people already in, I like limping behind. With SCs and good position, I'd rather make a small investment now and get out cheap if I miss. Raising the flop is really awesome as it gives you FE (and a likely free card on the turn if he flat calls), and if you get shoved, tens, jacks, and diamonds are all likely to be good outs here.