Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[mosdef]

I think it will work this time. I predict universal harmony by 2009.

[Moseley]

Israel has 250 nukes, and if pressed, will use them without U.S. ok.

Putin, while visiting Iran, stated in a speech that the U.S. needs to back off from their aggression towards Iran.

Israeli Prez flies to Russia the day after Putin returns home. You see Israel is not going to stand by and let a country, led by a leader who has swore to destroy Israel obtain nukes.

The mess in the Middle East is heating up big time, and this conference and all that Condi is doing is for the sake of cooling things down until Bush can get out of office so he doesn't have to take responsibility for a major war in the area.

So, if these stupid talks delay things, great. I'd rather go a few more years without a major conflict.

If we get really lucky and a miracle strikes, we may avoid a major confrontation.

It's not likely, however, as we has so many ignorant voters. I know 3 women over 50 yrs old, who are voting for Hillary, only because they like her husband. They have no idea where she stands on the issues. But when they talk about Bill, their faces light up.

Ignorant Americans will be our downfall.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

Clearly, the solution is to take all those U.S. troops in Iraq and withdraw them by using them to invade Israel and Saudia Arabia, uniting Israeli and Arab in the struggle against American imperialism.

Bonus points if W installs his brother Jeb as king of Jerusalem.

[Goater]

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In the 1993 Oslo accords, the Arabs welch on the deal by refusing to honor the terms while accepting the land-for-peace (the Gaza strip) that Israel gave. Hamas has rejected the Oslo accords while at the same time accepting the land that Israel gave up.... Again, I admire Hamas for their honesty as oppose to the lies from Fatah.

Land for peace has never worked with the Arabs, yet Bush is STUUU-PID enough to believe it will work this time...

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I agree with your first paragraph. Most Israelis see very little difference in practice between Hamas and Fatah. They have both been as active as each other in terrorism against Israelis, however at least Hamas is honest about its beliefs and vision of the future. Fatah, with its leaders welcomed in international circles and having been labeled a possible peace "partner", are trying to be seen as respectable at the same time as they continue to use terror against Israeli ciivlians. The only reason they "recognised" Israel was because they were virtually dead before Oslo and saw it as a way to return to the Palestinian terrtories from exile and to regain the power they once had. They did this superbly with Fatah surpressing Palestinians and stealing huge amounts of money sent for their aid. Their plan of destruction by stages was a realisation that they would never win a military victory against Israel.

Regarding land for peace, I disagree. The peace deal between Israel and Egypt was based on this premise and Israel withdrew from its settlements in the Sinai. Egypt was thrown out of the Arab league for this, consistent with Arab states principles of not making any deals with Israel and only considering force as a way of regaining Arab land which continues to this day. Of course, Sadat, after becoming the first Arab leader to visit Jerusalem and speak in the Knesset and finalising the peace deal to return all captured Egyptian territory, was assasinated.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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Their plan of destruction by stages was a realisation that they would never win a military victory against Israel.

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So true.....


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Regarding land for peace, I disagree. The peace deal between Israel and Egypt was based on this premise and Israel withdrew from its settlements in the Sinai.

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With the land-for-peace strategy, once the land is returned, there is no further incentive for the Arabs to honor the deal (other than perhaps the fear of the IDF). The Camp David accords is a land/money-for-peace deal so it has a greater chance of long term success.

Egypt is paid bribes (aka foreign aid) annually by the USA to honor the Camp David Accords. This foreign aid is critical in fattening up Swiss bank accounts of critical Egyptian leaders. Their leaders value money more than the wishes of the Egyptian people. Take away the bribes and I'm confident Egypt will welch on the rest of the agreement... The Egyptian people hate Israel... If their govt ever gets overthrown, then the will of the Egyptian people will compel them to go to war...

Regarding Jimmy Carter, he is no great peace maker. He is just an excellent briber. BTW, it was Jimmy Carter that made it a crime for US businesses to pay bribes to foreign businesses. In some parts of the world, bribery is a way of life and this holier-than-thou law hurts US businesses (or forces them to be more discrete with their bribes). But it is OK for Jimmy Carter to pay bribes to Israel and Egypt. Do as I say and not as I do.....

Personal story:
I use to work for a communications company and I was informed that Zimbabwe was the only country in Africa which did not have a cell phone network. The reason I was told was that Robert Mugabe was soliciting outrageous bribes for companies to operate a celluar phone network in his country. So outrageous it was not profitable to do business with him. This story is about 10 years old so perhaps things have changed but it illustrates in some countries that you pay bribes or you are not allowed to do business there...

[Goater]

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With the land-for-peace strategy, once the land is returned, there is no further incentive for the Arabs to honor the deal (other than perhaps the fear of the IDF).

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Whilst I think it is a little more complicated, this is unfortunately true. The Egyptians effectively facilitated the Hamas takeover of Gaza (and their continued supremacy there) by doing nothing to stop the rampant weapons and explosive smuggling through their border (with Gaza). Apart from possibly Jordan, the Arab countries are more than happy to encourage and support the ongoing war against Israel by proxy. This is one of the main reasons I opposed the Gaza withdrawal at the time - the absence of the IDF made it inevitable that Hamas would increase its power, take over and make a future peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians in general almost impossible.

[Zygote]

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3. Relocate all Arabs inside Israel and dump them on the borders of Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. Let their Arab brothers give them sanctuary.

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wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?

israel should just clean their hands and do something sensible with the occupied territories and then guard their home like no other. They have to stop playing into the terrorist game and get on with their lives.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?


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Cruelty is the only solution to this problem.....
Diplomacy alone will NEVER work....

Have you not seen excerpts of the text books books that the Arabs use to 'educate' their children? The anti-semitism they inject into the minds of their children would make it clear why these children will grow up hating Israel for the rest of their lives. They even use a "Mickey Mouse" character as a teaching tool to spread hatred in the minds of the palestinian children. An entire 2+2 topic could be made just on the palestinian 'education' system. The Nazis had their Hitler Youth to teach hatred towards the untermensch. The palestinians have taken these tactics and 'improved' upon them. The palestinian children of today will be the palestinian monsters of tomorrow...

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?


[/ QUOTE ]
Cruelty is the only solution to this problem.....
Diplomacy alone will NEVER work....

Have you not seen excerpts of the text books books that the Arabs use to 'educate' their children? The anti-semitism they inject into the minds of their children would make it clear why these children will grow up hating Israel for the rest of their lives. They even use a "Mickey Mouse" character as a teaching tool to spread hatred in the minds of the palestinian children. An entire 2+2 topic could be made just on the palestinian 'education' system. The Nazis had their Hitler Youth to teach hatred towards the untermensch. The palestinians have taken these tactics and 'improved' upon them. The palestinian children of today will be the palestinian monsters of tomorrow...

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yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too. if israel gave back the territories jewish terrorist could become a problem, for example, because many are as fanatically indoctrinated. most of jewish fanatics do their bidding through the military though while the other side does this through less formal organizations. if they lost military support i think youd see some serious jewish resistance groups.

the point is the education like this increases the more both sides feed each others hatred. Israel should have the moral ground by having the moral ground, not by destroying it. How can israel claim to be the good guy when they dont practice wat they preach. Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do? why does israel hold land and do nothing with it but deprive and enrage the lives of millions? why have they continued land expansion in undeserved territory rather than maintaining the deserved territory?

from what i can see from your analysis is not to send arabs into the distance but rather to start exterminating all of them.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

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Your son is in your house shooting at mine. You won't do anything because you say you fear he'll shoot you. So I come through your door and you object to my travelling over your property to get to your son. Then when I do so anyway you object to my shooting your son and think I should use other means. So to me you are responsible to some degree. And it doesn't matter if you do have a legitimate fear your son will shoot you if you intervene, because he's *your* son. It's your house and you should keep it in order if you don't like the means others use. Note this all started because *your* son was shooting into *my* property.