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  #71  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:14 PM
ZeroPointMachine ZeroPointMachine is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

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They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

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What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

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This is not really correct. A large percentage of illegals are paying payroll taxes on perfectly legitimate SSNs. Unfortunately, they are using the SSNs of their "anchor babies". It is not unusual at all for an 18 month old child to be making several hundred grand a year and paying taxes on all of it because his father and several of his uncles are working on his social security card. These kids will have their Social Security and unemployment benefits maxed before they ever work a day. Of course, taxes are taxes, and no politician or bureaucrat is going to get real excited about ending the practice. It's really just part of the way illegals have learned to game the system.
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  #72  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:37 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

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They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

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What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

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This is not really correct. A large percentage of illegals are paying payroll taxes on perfectly legitimate SSNs. Unfortunately, they are using the SSNs of their "anchor babies". It is not unusual at all for an 18 month old child to be making several hundred grand a year and paying taxes on all of it because his father and several of his uncles are working on his social security card. These kids will have their Social Security and unemployment benefits maxed before they ever work a day. Of course, taxes are taxes, and no politician or bureaucrat is going to get real excited about ending the practice. It's really just part of the way illegals have learned to game the system.

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It doesnt really matter though...they are still paying in order to receive the benefits. Who cares who gets them? They arent "gaming" anything, at least not in any negative way or way that negatively impacts us.
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  #73  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:47 AM
ZeroPointMachine ZeroPointMachine is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

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This is not really correct. A large percentage of illegals are paying payroll taxes on perfectly legitimate SSNs. Unfortunately, they are using the SSNs of their "anchor babies". It is not unusual at all for an 18 month old child to be making several hundred grand a year and paying taxes on all of it because his father and several of his uncles are working on his social security card. These kids will have their Social Security and unemployment benefits maxed before they ever work a day. Of course, taxes are taxes, and no politician or bureaucrat is going to get real excited about ending the practice. It's really just part of the way illegals have learned to game the system.

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It doesnt really matter though...they are still paying in order to receive the benefits. Who cares who gets them? They arent "gaming" anything, at least not in any negative way or way that negatively impacts us.

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I didn't really mean it in a negative way. They didn't create the system or the incentives.
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  #74  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:38 AM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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Just to confirm: illegal (excuse me dennis kucinich, undocumented) immigrants pay taxes? Is that a fact, jack?

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They certainly pay sales taxes when they buy things. Illegal immigrants who are assigned fake SS #s by their employers are also paying payroll taxes and aren't be eligible to collect any of the benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about real estate taxes? School taxes, etc? And any idea how many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes?

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This is not really correct. A large percentage of illegals are paying payroll taxes on perfectly legitimate SSNs. Unfortunately, they are using the SSNs of their "anchor babies". It is not unusual at all for an 18 month old child to be making several hundred grand a year and paying taxes on all of it because his father and several of his uncles are working on his social security card. These kids will have their Social Security and unemployment benefits maxed before they ever work a day. Of course, taxes are taxes, and no politician or bureaucrat is going to get real excited about ending the practice. It's really just part of the way illegals have learned to game the system.

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Then they must be pretty dumb at games:

Furrner 1: Lets all use baby Furrner's SSN and pay taxes on $1 million a year.

Furrner 2: Yeah, we'll max out baby Furrner's benefits in a year.

Baby Furrner, when he gets to age 70: Dear SSA, What do you mean my benefit is $36k a year, Ive been paying taxes of $120,000 a year since I was 3?

SSA: Dear Baby Furrner, you are entitled to a refund of excess Social Security taxes withheld by multiple employers. Please refile your Federal Income taxes for the last 7 years to claim a refund.

Baby Furrner: What do you mean 7 years? Ive been paying too much for 63 years.

SSA: Statute of limitations, FTW.
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  #75  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:00 AM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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is there any discussion of reforming the path for legal citizenship?

Also, aside from security issues, is there truely any justifiable reason to dislike immigration? I ask people "Why should I want a random american whom i've never met have better opportunities than a random foreigner living in america whom i've never met?" I'm usually met with blank stares.

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No kidding. I think it is basically 'patriotic' (whatever that is- and this is coming from soneone who used to have 'it' at least to some degree) brainwashing. It is a vague concept that is I think hard to articulate, and most people who 'have it' have never even reasoned why they should have it and why it is better than other ways of looking at the world and the human population of the world, let alone actively debated why it is superior. I think it will all come down to rhetoric if they tried.

When I asked my father a similar question a while back during a discussion about immigration (mine was why should I care about a random person born in locatioin A more than a random person born in location B?) His acutal response was: "I don't even know what that means." LOL
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  #76  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:06 AM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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I found it hilarious because heroism is completely subjective, as Alex so astutely pointed out. It's just as easy to consider McCain stupid as heroic in that example, because sometimes "dearly held principles" are just the ego's folly.

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So then that would also be true of AlexM's principles of property rights and natural rights, that they are ego's folly, yes?
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  #77  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:11 AM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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McCain is a national hero?

Oh wait, I forgot that for some reason people consider bad things happening to you to be heroic. Nevermind, carry on.

*goes and heroicly jumps into the Grand Canyon*

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The guy was offered an out-of-sequence release by the North Vietnamese because his father was a relatively-famous commander in the Navy and he turned it down because he didn't think it was fair to get sent home before other less-well-connected POWs who had been imprisoned for longer were forced to stay; he was then mercilessly tortured because of the refusal to leave.

I suppose we can debate what it means to be a "hero" and the nobility of purpose of flying jets in Vietnam, but you jumping into the Grand Canyon != McCain being offered the chance to escape imprisonment and torture but refusing to do so because it violated a dearly held principle. Not that I would expect your typical ACist to actually understand any of this kind of nuance, or why someone would do something like experience terrible physical trauma because of fidelity to dearly held principles (I know, I know -- you and Nielsio and other ACtards have experienced the terrible pain and suffering that the jackbooted thuggery of state authority and their taxation, which has wrought terribly wretched and painful lives upon you, which can only be remedied by sacrificing enormous time and energy...by posting about it on an the intraweb and YouTube. That is umm, a little similar, but not exactly the same).

Anyway, I thought it important to point this out, just in case there were other people like gobbomom out there who thought you were funny but hadn't quite considered why your analogy was retarded.

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Hmm... jumping into the Grand Canyon = tremendously stupid decision

Willingly choosing to be stay imprisoned and be tortured = tremendously stupid decision

Seems like a good analogy to me!

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Is this a joke? Standing on principle with a consequence of personal harm is heroic by most standards, and in no way analogous to nonsensical self-mutilation.


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If the "principle" is dumb and pointless, then yes it's entirely analogous to nonsensical self-mutilation. If the Vietnamese were releasing people on some set schedule and him getting released early bumped everyone else back a slot, then him making this sacrifice would indeed be heroic, but how did what he did actually help anyone? It did't! Thus, it was just dumb. It's not standing on principle that's heroic, it's standing on heroic principles. This wasn't anything but dumb. And you know what? I really don't want a president who would willingly sacrifice our entire country a ridiculous code of "honor." That's what the Japanese did at the end of WWII and it was dumb then too, not heroic.

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If you were forced to make a pact with someone when going into a dangerous situation, all other things being equal, who would you rather make a pact with, Mcain or some random stranger, and why?

I don't know anything more of Mcain's history than I have read here, but to me he sounds like someone who has a strong character and can be counted on for his loyalty. I happen to value loyalty a great deal.
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  #78  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:22 AM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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So what's everyone bitching about then? I always assumed illegals didn't pay taxes.

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Exactly. And of course its convenient to preted like they dont pay taxes so that we can kick them all out for other reasons.

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I always assumed they didn't either, but that was before I actually knew any. Up until 5 years or so ago I always assumed that almost everyone I saw of brown skin was here legally, and that it might be temporary and it might be permanent, but that if it was temporary or permanent they had some kind of permission from the government to work if they were working. I assumed that if anyone who did not have the proper permission to work here (SS Card or whatever the government gives out to visitors) that they MUST BE working under the table if in fact they were working. Because, after all, every job I went to asked for my SS Card and other ID's and everyon I knew had SS Cards and ID's. So I always assumed it was very hard to get a permanent job without one.

I knew it was possible, but usually intermittently working as an extra on a construction crew or something like that. Like an on call person when they are short a guy.

Now I know many, many illegal immigrants and they all (save a few in the minority) get paid by check and have all the taxes taken out just like everyone else. Really. I didn't really think that was possible (based on my prior experience) until I met them and became friends with them and learned first hand. I have dozens of friends who are illegal immigrants now. All work or have a spouse that works (mostly all both work 40+ hrs a week), and almost all pay taxes. None file tax returns. The govt keeps the SS money for their kitty, and doesn't have to pay back any fed or state returns to them. That is the common reality.

If they could get some job under the table for the same or similar wages most probably would, but then so would I. The reality is that there are not many permanent jobs out there that pay cash under the table.

There are, however, many jobs that are quite lax with the paperwork requirements prior to hiring. I never knew this prior to befrending illegal immigrants.
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  #79  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:05 AM
gobbomom gobbomom is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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I found it hilarious because heroism is completely subjective, as Alex so astutely pointed out. It's just as easy to consider McCain stupid as heroic in that example, because sometimes "dearly held principles" are just the ego's folly.

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So then that would also be true of AlexM's principles of property rights and natural rights, that they are ego's folly, yes?

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um, surely you see that one thing does not lead to the other? IDK if you have some vendetta against Alex, which I've no interest in getting into, but I think it's easy to point out that one can't maintain "principles" of property rights and natural rights, merely ideas and opinions.
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  #80  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:10 AM
bkholdem bkholdem is offline
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Default Re: The immigration issue (YouTube Republican debate)

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I found it hilarious because heroism is completely subjective, as Alex so astutely pointed out. It's just as easy to consider McCain stupid as heroic in that example, because sometimes "dearly held principles" are just the ego's folly.

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So then that would also be true of AlexM's principles of property rights and natural rights, that they are ego's folly, yes?

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um, surely you see that one thing does not lead to the other? IDK if you have some vendetta against Alex, which I've no interest in getting into, but I think it's easy to point out that one can't maintain "principles" of property rights and natural rights, merely ideas and opinions.

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I have nothing against Alex, and am in fact an ACist. What is the difference between a "dearly held principle" and an "idea/opinion"?
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