Thomas Jefferson on Religion and Legbreaking - Page 6

ZeeJustin · #51 09-15-2007, 11:57 AM

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I have eliminated your social records and have you locked up in a room on my private ranch. No one is searching for you. On a whim, I've decided to shoot you in the head. You have one minute to give me a reason why I should not kill you. Go.

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Level or serious?

Is your understanding of human nature so poor and so reliant upon the existence of god that you think this scenario would ever come up?

There's this thing called evolution which over time has developed this thing called a brain which operates in a very specific way. Thanks to evolution, the brain operates in a way that leads to survival and reproduction.

People have very strong feelings for community, and don't go around killing people randomly unless they have serious mental diseases.

Furthermore, even forgetting this irrational explanation, if humans were purely logical creatures (which they are not), it would still be in their best interest to not go around killing each other. For starters, they would be less likely to be killed themselves.

People have this [censored] up belief that all their morals come from God when religion motivates through fear and greed alone.

The rest of us that use logic develop a system of morals based on basic logic and common courtesy, and yes, utility as well.

TimM · #52 09-15-2007, 11:57 AM

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Jefferson said: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

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Laws with religious bases, caused by too many neighbors who want to impose their beliefs on everyone, are picking our pockets and breaking our legs constantly. For example: religious tax exemptions cost us all in higher taxes, and bans on stem cell research could delay a critical treatment that some of us will need in the future.

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A minister from New York responded: "Let my neighbor perceive himself that there is no God, and he will soon pick my pocket and break not only my leg but my neck."

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Obviously false. This is not borne out by experience.

Peter666 · #53 09-15-2007, 01:12 PM

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I have eliminated your social records and have you locked up in a room on my private ranch. No one is searching for you. On a whim, I've decided to shoot you in the head. You have one minute to give me a reason why I should not kill you. Go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Level or serious?

Is your understanding of human nature so poor and so reliant upon the existence of god that you think this scenario would ever come up?

There's this thing called evolution which over time has developed this thing called a brain which operates in a very specific way. Thanks to evolution, the brain operates in a way that leads to survival and reproduction.

People have very strong feelings for community, and don't go around killing people randomly unless they have serious mental diseases.

Furthermore, even forgetting this irrational explanation, if humans were purely logical creatures (which they are not), it would still be in their best interest to not go around killing each other. For starters, they would be less likely to be killed themselves.

People have this [censored] up belief that all their morals come from God when religion motivates through fear and greed alone.

The rest of us that use logic develop a system of morals based on basic logic and common courtesy, and yes, utility as well.

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Pffft. This common courtesy and basic logic talk is a bunch of utopian crap when experience has shown us that if one could lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way for personal advantage without consequence, he gladly would. People try it all the time.

Religion is a supreme societal advantage, for a god sees things what other people can't, and therefore can check behaviour.

Sephus · #54 09-15-2007, 01:26 PM

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Wow Sephus putting a lot of work into leveling this thread, bored?

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at first i was trying to move the thread along. i'm pretty depressed that my 1000+ posts here over the last few years have apparently been so unmemorable.

nobody recognizes a carlo post when they read it? i thought it was pretty good.

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I thought it was excellent. It started with a little SAR, then some carlo, a few NR posts, all you really missed out on were some Peter666 and txag. Overall, a solid 8.5/10.

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yeah, that was what i was going for. for peter i should have said "if i thought there were no god i would punch your children in the face."

popeye18 · #55 09-15-2007, 01:29 PM

I would love to see some studies on what percentage of people who commit crimes like murder are religious, and what percentage are atheists.

Sephus · #56 09-15-2007, 01:32 PM

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This common courtesy and basic logic talk is a bunch of utopian crap when experience has shown us that if one could lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way for personal advantage without consequence, he gladly would.

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of course he would. but doing it "without consequence" isn't a very realistic scenario, whether he believes in god or not.

who is arguing that people will refrain from murder without perceiving negative consequences? is anyone?

popeye18 · #57 09-15-2007, 01:40 PM

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This common courtesy and basic logic talk is a bunch of utopian crap when experience has shown us that if one could lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way for personal advantage without consequence, he gladly would.

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of course he would. but doing it "without consequence" isn't a very realistic scenario.

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So your saying religion and government fulfill the same purpose? /level delete backspace

Prodigy54321 · #58 09-15-2007, 01:45 PM

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if you don't believe in god, why not go on a killing spree? there's no reason not to that i can think of.

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I would go into the many reasons why it is not advantageous to go on killing sprees (even without mention of complex social contracts, law enforcement, etc)...but I'll go a much simpler route

because I don't enjoy killing people.

Sephus · #59 09-15-2007, 01:48 PM

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if you don't believe in god, why not go on a killing spree? there's no reason not to that i can think of.

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I would go into the many reasons why it is not advantageous to go on killing sprees (even without mention of complex social contracts, law enforcement, etc)...but I'll go a much simpler route

because I don't enjoy killing people.

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how do you know until you try?

Prodigy54321 · #60 09-15-2007, 01:52 PM

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this is all supported by scripture, which is from god according to scripture. god is good, of course, by definition, and a good god would give us something like scripture, which he did.

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if god is good by definition, then he would also be a "good god" if he didn't give us something like scripture