Bankroll Definition and Recommendation for No-Limit Hold 'em

[Matt Flynn]

bump


come on folks, step out on a ledge and join the discussion,

[theBruiser500]

i'm not sure what you're asking matt, so i will just lend a few thoughts on bankroll management. it's dawning on me that my bankroll management skills are bad, fortunately i've been a good enough player in the past so i didn't run into trouble. i've set rules for myself a few times like "okay i lost X dollars at this stake now its time to drop down until i win it back at low stakes" but every single time i break it and fast too. the problem is that hard and fast rules don't make sense, if there is a good game at higher stakes, or i feel like i'm goign to play good poker i can't make myself stay at lower stakes.

better than that would be to evaluate the situations as they come along honestly, but this is notoriously hard to do. your advice to take a day off after losing some money... that advice comes up all the time but i disagree. after i lost a lot of money the only way to reverse that Tilt mindset for me is to use willpower and start winning again. taking more days off just lets me get rusty and suffer more days in the midst of a downturn not an upturn.

i think you put it very well when you called bankroll management Pain Management, the way i do it i surely go through a lot of pain but i am greedy and can't help myself. plus my life style and being so young allows me flexibility

[punter11235]

Imo any bankroll requirements doesnt make any sense.
Its all about risk tolerance and honest assessment of one abilities.
In today environment one can play 6+tables and get 50xbuyin bankroll at any stakse in no time - IF one beats lower stakes. You only need "bankrol requirements" when you try another level and the only thing which is useful to decide if you should take that shot is your tolerance for risk.
I dont see how general tips may help.

What would be helpful is some tables with calculated probabilities of going on X buyin downswing before winning say 20xbuyin with given WR and std dev so everybody can choose his/her own risk tolerance.

[Apathy]

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Hi Matt:

6-max has a substantially higher variance than full ring, and headsup is even higher than 6-max. (Of course, your edge is also higher in those games, but not sufficiently so to cancel out the effect of variance in my experience.)

You may want to be advocating different ceilings for each. While I think a full ring nit could get by with 20 buyins, I think a 6-max guy might want 35 and a HU specialist 50.

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mmm.. i disagree with some of this.. a HU specialist is also good at finding idiots to play HU where there is VERY little variance assuming they dont quit you. holla

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There are Hu games out there that you could play with a 5 buyin BR and never go broke, I dont think you could say that for almost any 6 max gamme you can find.

[llleisure]

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bump


come on folks, step out on a ledge and join the discussion,

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Ok fine you asked for it lol. I was going to reply a few days ago and wrote so much crap I made it another thread and got some feedback there, some of which is:

You can be over-bankrolled as well as under-bankrolled. "Bored money can be as dangerous as scared money" was a great reply from someone. If you're way over rolled you may also risk stagnating your game or least slowing way down on improving.

Somehow bankroll management and deciding when/if to move stakes vs continuing to just slaughter whatever stakes you're at versus continuing to improve you game are all tied together, IMHO.

There are bankrolls of players in HSNL that got built slowly, starting lower, improving and building up to go up in stakes. I *hope* there are others out there that started with a roll from elsewhere (non-poker), improved and moved up stakes without living on the razor's edge the whole time because that is my personal situation.

I could afford to go sit in a HSNL game but I want feel like I'm "supposed to" move up. It's hard to know when the right time is - it is based solely on "hey what I consider my bankroll trippled so I should move up" or was that just a good run? Who knows...

Raptor's point about not considering money offline in play is a great one too and one I struggle with. I play live (over 21 - way over lol) and online lately. Do I have two bankrolls or one? Crap I don't know.

Not considering offline money in play - especially offline money you made playing online and cashed out - is probably a really good idea. Think about the tax implications - until the money comes offline, no requirement to pay taxes on it because it's in play. Pull it offline and you're supposed to pay taxes so the govt takes a bite. Now if you go put some of that money back in play but it's post-govt-bite and you've just cost yourself whatever % your tax bracket is. No good. I read someplace about the Vegas pros keeping casino boxes and keeping LARGE sums of money - in chips - in the boxes. Makes a lot of sense - that money is in play and no requirement to go paying taxes on it, then have to reload post-tax right?

Very interesting subject and I'll buy the book when it comes out. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[raptor517]

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Think about the tax implications - until the money comes offline, no requirement to pay taxes on it because it's in play. Pull it offline and you're supposed to pay taxes so the govt takes a bite. Now if you go put some of that money back in play but it's post-govt-bite and you've just cost yourself whatever % your tax bracket is.

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is all this true? if so, it makes my life a lot easier. holla

[Ansky]

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Think about the tax implications - until the money comes offline, no requirement to pay taxes on it because it's in play. Pull it offline and you're supposed to pay taxes so the govt takes a bite. Now if you go put some of that money back in play but it's post-govt-bite and you've just cost yourself whatever % your tax bracket is.

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is all this true? if so, it makes my life a lot easier. holla

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until he wrote that i was 99% sure it wasnt true.

now im like 82%

but what the [censored] do i know.

[PartyGirlUK]

aba posted the q in legislation and u have to pay taxes on your winnings, regardless of whether you have withdrawn them or not.

Unless you are British in which case no taxes.

[llleisure]

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Think about the tax implications - until the money comes offline, no requirement to pay taxes on it because it's in play. Pull it offline and you're supposed to pay taxes so the govt takes a bite. Now if you go put some of that money back in play but it's post-govt-bite and you've just cost yourself whatever % your tax bracket is.

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is all this true? if so, it makes my life a lot easier. holla

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The thing I am 100% sure about is this: The amounts of money in play for some of the HSNL online guys, you shouldn't be taking tax advice as anything other than anectdotal from any Internet forum. Get yourself a good CPA fimiliar with gambling earnings and US tax law. You probably are at least aquainted with someone who knows an over 21 big name pro, right? Ask that person to ask the big name pro to refer you to an accountant and talk with them. Even if not a local TX guy, if you have to go to Vegas for it - which I sort of doubt this being TEXAS and the name of the game being TEXAS hold'em and all lol. If nothing else, ask that magazine guy that wrote the article on you guys to point you at someone who has a good CPA and knows the tax laws.

Logically it makes no sense to me: If you have money you've won in an offshore account, playing with an offshore casino and that money never comes to the US but remains in play offshore, at what point are you required to pay US taxes? What happens if, right after you pay taxes, you donkey off all your money? I doubt you'd be getting a refund.

If you fly to Spain, enter a tournament and win, take the winnings in chips of the casino there if that's an option and place those chips in a casino box in Spain, how is that different than what I'm saying?

Online money that is in play isn't directly accessible and "winnings" aren't really winnings until they're realized ala Capital Gains. That's my theory and it's worth nothing - talk to a CPA familar with gambling winnings.

[raptor517]

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talk to a CPA familar with gambling winnings.

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funny thing about that.. they all say something different, and no one seems to be completely sure on the laws regarding internet gambling. oh well, for now ive been sticking with pay tax on what hits my bank account. holla