25NL 6 max. All-in riv against aggressive opponent

[imtav]

Hey guys. Obviously I'm kinda new, but I was hoping for some criticism on this hand.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1689275

Read I had on the villain was very aggressive. He'd c-bet everything and pretty much always throw in a bet when there was weakness. My plan after his turn bet was to call and all-in the riv with my made straight or any spade to rep the flush. Don't know if this was a good play or not, but I'd appreciate all comments.

[jcl]

FOLD TURN that is the easiest fold on the turn ever. don't rep a flush draw out of position because 1) you don't know he doesn't have the flush draw - pushing into the nuts would be fun wouldn't it 2) even if you do steal it every time a spade comes (which isn't the case, you'll get crying called occasionally), you just paid $10 fricking dollars to see it which means you'll be losing money in the long run. Now your straight draw obviously improves the situation but this is still a bad call on turn.

[Nightlight87]

What were you going to if a spade of straight card didnt land?

[imtav]

If the spade or straight card didn't come I was going to check/fold.

My thought process, obviously quickly, went something like:
He bet the pot on the turn, and the other guy in the pot folded, so I knew I would be heads up if I played. I also saw I had over 2 times the amount of the call left, and I had thought I could get him all-in if my straight made without a spade (figuring he'd call it seeing it as a busted flush draw). Also figured I could go all in with the spade representing the made flush, and have him fold with those hands.

His bet on the turn didn't look like a value bet from a 4 flush, so I didn't think he was on a flush draw and was betting to protect TPTK or 2 pair. I figured 4:1 implied odds for the 3 non spade nines and 3 non spade aces that made my straight, and I was getting 2:1 on my call for the 9 spades that came which I could bluff with.

It felt like a play that made sense. It worked, I just don't know if it was because I got really lucky, or if it was a sound play.


edit: I was just checking out an odds chart, seeing I was 6.67:1 to hit the 6 outs for the non-spade straight card (I thought it was a bit lower when I played the hand) to win 4:1 implied and another 4.11:1 odds for my 9 outs to probably win 2:1. Could someone also show me how to add those odds up for the hand?

[Pvnuts]

Ok, well in my opinion, the call on the turn was a bad move. As you know I'm sure, you had no drawing odds. Now, as you said, one of you're tactics was to appear as a bad player drawing for a spade by simply calling. There are a few problems with that...
1. This is a common tactic. I myself look for players that make this play and once I realize they do this, I mark a note on them... I'm sure I'm not the only one that does this. The cost of doing this type of business far exceeds the amount you will win... here is why...

Flush draw (4:1).. price for one card $10, long run win $50... net = $10 (after 5 similar situations)

Fake Flush draw (4:1).. Price for one card $10, long run win $50... net = $10 (after 5 similar fake draws)

Ok, you made an extra $10, but the money you gain vs. the losses you will loose when someone has a read on you is not comparable. At least with the actual flush, you will "likely" be ahead.

Also, you are playing small stakes... small stakes payers don't get scared off by flush draws. As Skalansky puts it... you could bluff a good player, but you can't bluff a bad one...

[imtav]

Thanks for the tip. Faking the flush draw was a bad move, but in terms of my thinking about implied odds (again, I'm pretty new to this), was it reasonable to think I was getting 4:1 implied on the non-spade straight (even though I wasn't getting proper odds for that straight draw alone)?

[jcl]

the non-spade straight is only 6 outs..u r missing a lot of the time...and he only has 20$ left...there's no pot odds obviously. in terms of pot odds it's a terrible call. u need implied odds to make it up. r there? well firstly think u only have 20 left and u just called 10! hardly enough at all. you're missing way more than you hit and if you hit, EVEN IF YOU GET THE 20 EVERYTIME (which u wont because half ur straight cards r aces and this guy obv has a king so u wont get paid off a lot), u'll be losing money.

[Pvnuts]

Hi again,

Yes, if you could put the flush draw idea in the trash, then yes I woul have to agree that you're play for a straight draw is good as long as you feel certain that Dryace will yeild more to you. However, this was only acceptable on the flop, NOT ON THE TURN... Here is the math...

flop pot = $4.74, you had to call $2.35
Long run cost for this play is $9.40
Dryace had to yield $7.00 for you to break even
(keep in mind that you will sometimes loose to the flush if you hit... this is why you sould always add to your're odds.. so realy you should not use 4:1, rather 8:1.
New long run cost is $18.80
Dryace needs to yeild $16.40 if you hit before you could see this a profitable call on the flop.

Here is what happens on the turn...
Again, draw is 8:1
Pot is $9.45
Bet is $9.40
You're long term cost is already well over $70 and the most you could win is a little over $20.

You would have had to fold on the turn if you didn't hit.

Keep in mind, that implied odds go down really fast on the turn. Usually you can only draw on implied odds on the flop and fold if you didn't hit.

[kav]

Pvnuts, you are wrong. I can't look at the hand right now so I just read the posts.

Yeah, you have reverse implied odds if you hit your straight and a flush card hits on the river (assuming your opponents holds the flush draw), but you can't take the drawing odds and almost double them (4:1 to 8:1).

It is a little more complicated on the flop. But on the turn its really simple. Say you have an OESD but you suspect your opponent holds a flush draw. Assuming that if you hit your SD and it's not a spade you will win, all you need to do is discount 2 outs from your OESD.

Now, six cards will give you the nuts.. so your odds are 40:6 (6.7:1) and not 8:1.

I hope you can understand what I mean, my english sucks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[imtav]

I now know the turn call I made was incorrect. But, pretending someone else made that decision for me, were my other decisions in the hand good? Maybe not the all-in on the river since the flush completed and he might have had it, but I thought it was acceptable at the time for me to believe he wasn't on the flush draw since his turn bet looked like it was meant to protect against draws.