200NL River decisions

RapidLearner · #1 11-27-2007, 08:17 PM

For some reason, my 1/2 hour session today was a series of "guess the river" hands, so I made up a set of them to get an idea of what others think.

call, fold, bet or raise the following hands at the river? Some of these seem obvious to me so I'm not too sure how obvious they are to others.

Also, if any of the streets seem butchered please let me know.

Finally, thoughts, reasoning and logic are far more valuable than the answers. Don't just put an answer without reasoning; you are wasting everybody's time.

 Hand 1 

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $200
UTG+1: $319.05
Hero (UTG+2): $220.15
MP1: $80
MP2: $207.20
CO: $291.20
BTN: $253.35
SB: $216.40
BB: $30

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2, Hero calls $2, 3 folds, BTN calls $2, SB calls $1, BB checks

Flop: ($10) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $7, BTN folds, SB calls $7, 2 folds

Turn: ($24) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, SB calls $12

River: ($48) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $39, Hero ...

 Hand 2 

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $82.10
Hero (BB): $200
UTG: $200
UTG+1: $128.50
MP1: $232
MP2: $276.35
CO: $282.80
BTN: $35.40

Pre-Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
6 folds, SB calls $1, Hero raises to $6, SB raises to $10, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($20) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $12, Hero calls $12

Turn: ($44) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $14, Hero calls $14

River: ($72) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $46.10 and is All-In, Hero ...

 Hand 3 

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+2: $152.75
MP1: $214.60
MP2: $603.25
Hero (CO): $196.55
BTN: $288.30
SB: $108.10
BB: $84.65
UTG: $40
UTG+1: $206.55

Pre-Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero calls $4, 2 folds, BB calls $2

Flop: ($13) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $10, Hero calls $10, BB folds

Turn: ($33) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($33) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero ...

 Hand 4 

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $198
BB: $187.75
Hero (UTG): $205.35
MP: $31
CO: $93.95
BTN: $208.55

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $7, MP folds, CO calls $7, BTN folds, SB calls $6, BB folds

Flop: ($23) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12, CO folds, SB calls $12

Turn: ($47) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($47) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $28, Hero ...

AllTheCheese · #2 11-27-2007, 08:27 PM

Hand 1: Bet more on flop/turn. Given flop play, he's probably drawing on the turn. Raise to $100 on river as played. He really shouldn't have a boat here the way this hand has played.

Hand2: Raise less preflop. You have position and you have a nice drawing hand if you get called. Fold river is good.

Hand3: Check. He most likely got there with AK and AQ. If he has TT and takes it down, so be it. Call preflop is a little questionable, but not terrible.

Hand4: Bet more on the flop. I guess call as played, but it's a crappy spot.

RapidLearner · #3 11-28-2007, 12:36 AM

Confused as to why there was an edit btw, was there something done incorrectly?

Hand 1: on the river raise, are you looking for a hand like QJ or KJ to look us up? I agree turn bet size should be larger, like $20. I think that was a misclick due to multi-tabling.

Hand 2: raise less = Min-raise preflop? $5? A raise to $6 is my standard PSR with a top 30% hand in a spot like this. I don't understand "raising less". Also, don't you think we should make a commitment decision on the flop/turn? Or is there enough money left behind? I hate calling the flop, and the turn, and then folding river. I also hate raising somewhere. The limp-raise from the SB preflop spelled ultra strong, like JJ+ and AK, and the whole line seems donkey enough to be JJ-KK on top of AK, or some random garbage, and I was trying to get him to bluff off his stack. Plus, the turn bet being nearly the same size as his flop bet seems awfully suspicious to me.

I think we should consider whether or not we're willing to get all-in against this opponent on the flop before considering a call. Would you agree?

Hand 3: We aren't beating much here, and I feel the Ace is a prime bluff card to push off JX, TT, 99, etc. I could reasonably represent AcXc here.

FWIW, my standard is to fold a hand like this, but preflop min-raiser was really loose and bad (not enough postflop data tho). However, that's irrelevant when we're evaluating the hands /w no reads.

Hand 4: This was just screaming busted flush draw to me.

I didn't like the spot either after coming back and looking at it, but I missed mentioning that villain bets the river like 60%+, but is fairly passive on flop and turn. Turns a crappy spot into an easy call imo. Again, irrelevant while we consider w/o a read.

I appreciate the comments!

AllTheCheese · #4 11-28-2007, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Confused as to why there was an edit btw, was there something done incorrectly?

Hand 1: on the river raise, are you looking for a hand like QJ or KJ to look us up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. IMO he has a busted draw here a ton so he'll just fold and we won't get any extra value. But I think I raise here anyway for those few scenarios where he meek played KJ, QJ. He won't have J5 or J6 here. He really shouldn't have a boat, idk how he check-calls drawy flop with set and then doesn't raise turn when the Jack gets there. JT I guess is possible, but still seems unlikely given the action. River call is fine too, but idk, maybe it's just me, but the possibility of a boat just seems so remote here.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: raise less = Min-raise preflop? $5? A raise to $6 is my standard PSR with a top 30% hand in a spot like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah this is my bad. I saw his stack and his "limp for $1" and I thought $100 NL. You should actually raise MORE preflop, to like $8.

[ QUOTE ]

I think we should consider whether or not we're willing to get all-in against this opponent on the flop before considering a call. Would you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. We call the flop because we have to call. We have Aces up and he could have TT-KK, like you said. The turn it seems like he can still be blocking a float with KK, QQ and we're getting like a zillion to one so we call again (IMO, he does this with Jacks full on the turn a lot too). On the river, idk, from experience, I think we pretty much have to be beat.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3: We aren't beating much here, and I feel the Ace is a prime bluff card to push off JX, TT, 99, etc. I could reasonably represent AcXc here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he bets Jx on the turn or even on the river. The pot is too small for us to reasonably expect him to fold a hand like KJ or QQ. Plus, you have a lot of showdown value against a minraiser. He can show up with 7 high here.

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW, my standard is to fold a hand like this, but preflop min-raiser was really loose and bad (not enough postflop data tho).

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I saw the raise and assumed $100 NL. Sorry. I call a minraise with this hand all day.