Cheating in Online Poker

[uclabruinz]

I am going to write an article on cheating in online poker and am looking for any input that anyone has. I consider myself relatively uninformed at this point as to the shadier aspects of the game, but know that cheating runs rampant based on the comments in ActionJeff's post a couple weeks ago.

I have contacted Stars support, but they have been wildly inconsistent and generally disinterested both about specific aspects of cheating I have pointed out (e.g., buying several "idiots" into tournaments and taking over either literally or verbally if they get deep) and their policies in general, with are inconsistent with the statements being made by their support. I also feel they are very wrong about ethical standards in general with their "whatever is unenforceable is acceptable" line of reasoning.

So if anyone has specific input of any nature, please feel free to post it here, or to PM it to me. As many players who I suspect of cheating in one form or another based on their statements made here in this forum continue to show up deep in tournaments, the more motivated I am do something about it.

Steroids in baseball, doping in the Tour de France, refs on the take in the NBA. It's all over the place, and there's not much I can do about it, despite how much it disturbs me. However, I love this game of ours, this is my game, and I have hopes and goals within this game that are at least in part dependent upon the game flourishing and being fair. Please help me do what we can to make it that way in any way you are able to.

So let this thread not only be about what should go into an article about cheating in online poker, but what can be done by the community in general to prevent it.

[uclabruinz]

By the way, Stars attitude toward this subject can pretty much be summed up by the email I just received from support. I pointed them to ActionJeff's thread, and they stated they did not have time to look through the entire thread for the posts that I was referencing. I mean, this is obviously a thread with many contributions by many of the top players in the games about various ways that cheating, or at least pushing grey areas, is being discussed and they don't have time to look through it. Simply amazing.

[Clayton]

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I also feel they are very wrong about ethical standards in general with their "whatever is unenforceable is acceptable" line of reasoning.

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Well, what can anyone do about it? Imo there simply isn't a reasonable counter-argument to the fact that any policy implemented to stop "1 player to a hand" or "Player A buys 6 people into event and takes over in the endgame" is going to result in inaccuracy and minor-leage witchhunts. There simply isn't a feasible option to disallow this that doesn't infringe on personal rights as a computer owner.

From PokerStars' standpoint as an online poker room, if they are to make a policy it should be in their first interest to make sure that they are able to implement the policy 100%. If they cannot implement the policy, then they do no good setting the policy out. If anything, setting a policy that cant be implemented looks bad for PokerStars, as it insinuates from a client perspective that PokerStars is not always in control of things and can be manipulated. This can't be good from a shareholder sense in the current state of online poker.

The solution doesn't start by complaining to the poker room, imo it starts with establishing and embracing a community like pocketfives and 2+2 on a greater scale that gets involved in such a way that devious actions are cut down.

[uclabruinz]

What is right or wrong is not dependent upon enforceability by any reasonable standard of ethics. If murder was impossible to detect for whatever reason, would that mean we would say "have at it because there's nothing we can do about it!"? Of course not.

Stars has an obligation to define the rules of its game to make things as ethical as possible, and do what it can to enforce those rules. Looking the other way and making things a free for all explicitly endorses conduct most of us would find unethical. If, for example, Stars were to say "one person to a hand at all times" but basically never be able to enforce it, this would at least cut down on this unethical behavior. The problem is that the lack of a "one player to a hand" rule can be taken to a massive extreme that most would feel is pretty explicitly unfair.

At any rate, that is only one small portion of what I am talking about. Your second example, "Player A buys 6 people into event and takes over in endgame" is explicitly banned by Stars own rules, yet they seem very disinterested in doing much about it. It's really a general attitude I detect, from Lee Jones through everyone I have talked to in support, that online poker is just too difficult to keep ethical, so there isn't a whole lot they are going to do or say about it.

[uclabruinz]

And by the way, Clayton, your last point is what I am trying to do. But to find out Stars' stance on all this, I had to inquire, and the response I received was disturbing. I am sure they are laughing all the way to the bank.

I was very disturbed by many of the responses in the ActionJeff thread, and have noticed that it has gone deathly quiet over the last week or two. Some, like ActionJeff and Adanthar, indicated that the extent of online cheating is breathtaking in scale. Some, mostly uneducated and very young, indicated that there's nothing anyone can do about it so everyone should just look the other way.

Well, I am not going to look the other way. I am going to keep this topic up front so, as you say, the community that I know exists consisting of those of us who demand the game be played fairly and ethically are doing our part to make it that way.

[Clayton]

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Stars has an obligation to define the rules of its game to make things as ethical as possible, and do what it can to enforce those rules.

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Nonsense. Stars has absolutely no obligation to make things as ethical as possible. They are obligated to make things as ethical as they can. When the means to make things as ethical as possible compromise the safety and privacy of the typical PokerStars user, then the entire fabric of what's considered an established, trusted online poker site can potentially be torn to shreds.

There is a distict difference between "as they can" and "as possible" which involves business ethics and honesty to the consumer. To proclaim rules that cannot be enforced is irresponsible as a business.

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If, for example, Stars were to say "one person to a hand at all times" but basically never be able to enforce it, this would at least cut down on this unethical behavior.

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This is also impractical and only serves as an end without realizing the means and complexities involved, which boils down to business ethics and dishonesty towards consumers when such a suggestion is rephrased as a fake "rule", comprimising PokerStars' image as both the #1 trusted site in online poker and a site that is in control of everything.

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It's really a general attitude I detect, from Lee Jones through everyone I have talked to in support, that online poker is just too difficult to keep ethical, so there isn't a whole lot they are going to do or say about it.

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The complaints u address would require a vast amount of expenses to cater to a very small % of the pokerstars community, and the issue at hand is grey enough that it would not spark a large enough contreversy to hurt business. Imo it is not unreasonable for PokerStars to hold to their approach.

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I am only so adamant in being devil's advocate to your OP to bluntly state that I think involving PS in your movement is ill-advised, and your efforts would be best spent to shift your entire focus towards creating and promoting a community that outnumbers MTTC and pocketfives that hopes to maintain a sense of ethics. Like imagine the PPA, except aimed towards online player ethics.

fwiw Paul I like where you're going with this so please don't see my replies as arguing, but rather a suggestion to better your efforts. gl, of course.

[HorridSludgyBits]

I, too, am pretty disturbed by all of this, and never could figure out the purpose of the ActionJeff thread. He seemed to be calling people out for some kinds of cheating, then was perfectly ok with other kinds. I guess it's wrong if it's being done to me, but ok if my buddies and I are the ones profiting from it. We come down hard on JJProdigy and ZeeJustin and it makes us feel better, but I feel that multi-accounting is less cheating than the collusion-type activities considered "unenforceable."

Online poker is kind of in its "Wild West" phase. In the old West, the rule of law was very difficult to establish because law enforcement was inadequate to keep up with the rapid influx of new settlers, and there were such large areas of land to cover. Eventually, the rule of law was established but, in the meantime, lawmen were pretty much on their own to keep order the best they could. But I doubt the Sheriffs and townsfolk were saying "Well, we can't stop Butch Cassidy from stealing cattle so why not just let him?"

Some studies have shown that the vast majority (80-90% iirc) of the younger generation (not just poker players) believe that it's ok to cheat to get ahead in education (cheating on tests), and on the job, at a significantly higher percentage than previous cohorts (I don't remember the source of the study, but it was quoted in a Reader's Digest article from about 10 years ago). I think that's the sort of thing uclabruinz (and I) saw in the ActionJeff thread.

Although one expects to see all manner of angle-shooting and ethically challenged individuals in a money driven activity such as poker, I don't think it means that we have to accept it, especially since all of us will make less money, not only because of the direct impact, but because of the perceived loss of credibility for potential newcomers who won't want to get involved with an activity they see as stacked against them.

Sorry for the long post. I don't have anything specific to suggest yet, but the lack of response from PS is a serious error in judgment imo, and will end up costing them in the long run. Shedding light on this by writing an article on it is a good start.

[THEOSU]

ucla,

team play in cash games is by far the most damaging form of cheating online.

also, dean. is a bot.

[Ray_bob]

could someone send me the link to action jeffs post cause im interested to see what the hell is going on. i play low stakes so i dont imagine i have to worry about cheating as much.

[BadgerPro]

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could someone send me the link to action jeffs post cause im interested to see what the hell is going on. i play low stakes so i dont imagine i have to worry about cheating as much.

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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...13#Post11096814