Out of position on the river

[electrical]

My notes on the two villains are similar in that they are loose and prone to chasing. Seat 7 has been seen to overplay both underpairs and flush draws, and I have him ranked as a losing player from PTS, which implies that he puts in too much action in general.

Seat Two I have seen play a split underpair to the river quite loose/passively, and he seems to be playing any pair to any action on third. I have gotten in trouble with players of this type before, not giving them credit for drawing hands, which they must occasionally be dealt.

On Third I put Seat Seven on a pair, but not necessarily a big one. He would probably raise in position with split Tens, though a pocket pair of Kings or Queens would make sense too. Seat two, either a three-flush or smaller pair, maybe as small as Eights.

The third street completion is something I don't do very often, but I have been showing strong hands since I sat in, and any big card will both improve my hand and make my board more intimidating, so I thought I had a better than usual chance to take the pot early. After the pot was raised and called behind me, I felt a little foolish, but was getting excellent odds on the closing call, and if something good happened on Fourth it would likely be very good. It goes without saying that I'm not spending another nickel on this hand if I don't make pretty big strides on Fourth street.

On Fourth street, I was pretty sure Seat Seven would bet, and I was also pretty sure I had him beat. The re-raise from Seat Seven made me think he was over-playing a pair with a three-flush, maybe a SF draw, although buried Queens-or-better with some kind of backdoor is still a possibility. I think I have to charge any of these hands the maximum. If he has rolled tens, okay, it's his lucky night. Seat Two either has a four-flush or his original pair.

On Five, seat Seven doesn't raise, so he probably doesn't have a straight yet. Seat two either has a small two-pair hand or a four-flush and deuces.

Considering the action they both had to fade on Fourth and Fifth, They must have a pretty good idea that I have a big hand (bigger than Jacks-up), which makes me think betting the river can only cost me money. I realize I have a straight, but I think the only hands likely to call would just as likely raise. If I bet the river and get raised I will obviously throw up, and dinner was expensive enough that I'd like to keep it. If hearts and Spades were more dead, I think I bet pretty often. Here, I don't feel too good about it.


7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $1, Bring-In $1.50 (converter)

Seat 1: $105
Seat 2: $218.50
Seat 3: $182.50
Hero: $397.50
Seat 7: $324
Seat 8: $137

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___brings-in ___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___calls ___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___completes ___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___folds

4th Street - (7.50 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___calls ___calls ___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___checks ___raises ___raises
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___bets ___raises ___calls

5th Street - (9.75 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___bets
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___calls

6th Street - (12.75 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___bets
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___calls

River - (15.75 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___???
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx


Who bets the river here, and what hands do you think will pay off? There's a gut response, "they're bad, bet the river, they'll call with all kinds of crap," but I'm not sure that applies as much as it is said. I have seen "good" players donk off a lot of money on the river when there has been significant action, and I have done it myself.

While situations like this are rare, I'm trying to recognize when I should slow down despite a big pot and despite having a pretty good hand. Is that ever a good idea?

If I don't bet, calling is mandatory.

[crabbypatty]

did i ever say i really enjoy your posts. well now it is done. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

really at this point you cannot bet your hand for +ev. it has to be break even at best, and i would be suprised at that.
yes, your opponents are probably bad and they will call with all kinds of garbage; however, betting here will only get you raised by a better hand.(even dueces full would usually raise here. wrongly, but they usually would) and will you fold? of course not!

okay everyone, calm down! (always betting is not the key to winning poker) [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

seriously what can they be drawing to after he paired his door card on 5th! i know they are often brain-dead, but what can seat 2 have K's or Q's up trip dueces or flush draw and a pair. and seat 7 seems to have a likely 4 flush.

so it seems to me that your best move with this large pot is to check and only call. you cannot fold and you cannot raise. the only question is what if seat 7 bets and seat 2 raises. now it 2 bets to you and you surely have the worst hand more often than 1 time in 9. hey but what do i know.

if you checked it to them let them, i say good for you! if not [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img], well maybe next time.

now if you can only identify a good player that will only value bet a made hand here and would check behind with a worse hand.

[Brad1970]

IMO, I think that a check/call is your best play here. Eventhough these two are morons & you seem to have reads on both, when they don't flinch after you pair your door, you'd have to give them credit for some kinda hand. I would imagine that one or maybe even both had flush draws on 4th & there are alot of spades & hearts still in the deck. Seat 2 also has a paired board...

[PoorLawyer]

I'd like to see some sims but I dont have the time.

My gut here says check, only because there are 2 players drawing against you...if it was heads up I would bet. If one of them made a lesser made hand like a straight, there is a good chance they will bet for you. If both of them are on busted flush draws you MAY miss one bet if seat 2 made two pair and makes a loose call "because the pot was so big".

OTOH hand if you bet and either hit their flush or better, you are probably getting raised despite your board, and have to call. I think its a spot where you are quite possibly risking two bets to win one (true, they both may call, especially if seat 7 had a big pair) and there is a 2x the chance you will lose since you couldn't knock one of these clowns out. I think its close though as they could have anything given your description.

[Andy B]

I'm not crazy about completing after a limper, but whatever. Fourth through sixth are fine. I think the river is a check. I think flush draws are a definite possibility for either of your opponents. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you bet and got paid off by two worse hands, though.

[electrical]

So, as it happened, I checked and they checked behind. Seat Seven had pocket Queens for Queens-up, seat Two had eights and Deuces. Their hands are right within their ranges, but I think I will run into a better hand than mine often enough for a bet to be incorrect.