Did I miss a raise here?

[electrical]

Haven't played Razz too much lately, so I'm trying to catch up. My big question is Sixth street. The call there probably induced the bet/call on the river, so another bet went in, but I wonder if there's room for a raise on Six anyway, given the size of the pot, and that I'm probably drawing to 13 outs, even knowing that I'll probably get three-bet. Does the possibility that he has a made Seven make that ridiculous?

I think I have about 25 percent equity here, giving him a rough Eight, and 20 percent if he has a Seven. A three-bet means I'll be putting in a total of 3BB on 6th for a win of 14.6BB, or nearly 5:1. Does anybody do this when drawing with A23, or would it be pure spew?

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

Seat 2: $10.25
Hero: $38.95
Seat 4: $14.95
Seat 5: $31.70
Seat 8: $45.25

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___raises
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___brings-in ___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___completes ___calls

4th Street - (5.25 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___calls

5th Street - (3.63 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___raises ___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ___bets ___raises ___calls

6th Street - (11.63 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___bets

River - (13.63 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx ___bets ___calls

Total pot: (17.63 BB - $35.25)

[chucky]

No. You put in every raise possible considering your opponent hits 8 low by 6th street.

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't played Razz too much lately, so I'm trying to catch up. My big question is Sixth street. The call there probably induced the bet/call on the river, so another bet went in, but I wonder if there's room for a raise on Six anyway, given the size of the pot, and that I'm probably drawing to 13 outs, even knowing that I'll probably get three-bet. Does the possibility that he has a made Seven make that ridiculous?

I think I have about 25 percent equity here, giving him a rough Eight, and 20 percent if he has a Seven. A three-bet means I'll be putting in a total of 3BB on 6th for a win of 14.6BB, or nearly 5:1. Does anybody do this when drawing with A23, or would it be pure spew?


[/ QUOTE ]

You need to review your ideas of what pot equity is and why it is useful, because your thinking is incorrect (read or reread Theory of Poker). From an equity point of view, you NEVER want to put in extra bets when you are getting less than your fair share of equity in the pot. So in a heads up pot, if you know you have less than 50% you want as LITTLE money as possible to go into the pot on that street. The fact that there is already money in the pot is the reason that you can CALL with less than 50% equity, but it is NOT a reason to RAISE. If you only have 25% equity on a street, for every dollar you and your opponent put in, you only get 50 cents (of those bets) back at the end, on average! There are of course other strategic moves that make raising when you know you are not getting your fair share of equity in the pot, like buying a free card or isolating a player, but but you still theoretically are losing money with those bets (you just hope to earn back what you lost w/ betting on the later streets).

So, what that means is that on 6th, raising would definitely be a spew. It also means that on 5th, you are also spewing money with your cap, because ANY rough 8 is a favorite over ANY draw in razz (assuming no other dead cards). I would not even raise once on 5th street because even with the possibility that he has paired the ace, you still have only about 50% equity in the pot. If he has a made 8 (which he does when he 3 bets), your equity is only 45%.

Hope that helps,
Carlos

[Andy B]

What Carlos said. You're behind, and you will get three-bet.

[electrical]

I get it. It's still regular poker.

Razz regularly puts you in situations where your draw is so good, and your opponent's hand so unlikely to re-draw, that if you hit your hand it is a monster. There are somewhat similar situations in 7-stud (say you have a pair of Kings and OESFD while your opponent shows unsuited little cards, but probably has two dead small pair) but they are more rare, and your opponent cannot be certain he is ahead. I wondered if any regular Razz players tried to build bigger pots in those situations, since they come up more often.

I realize this isn't a board lock scenario, (my opponent could conceivably make a hand that beat me even if I made a Six), but if there was some magic form of this game where my opponent could open for 3BB on 6th street, I'd call. What I was wondering was if anybody would intentionally put himself in that position with a raise, expecting to be three-bet.

As it turns out, the answer is no.

[UpstateMatt]

What Carlos said, but also note: even if your Jack is ahead on 6th, you are unlikely to gain any bets. Your hand will be face up, villian will just call the 6th street raise, and then check-call the river unless he makes a monster.

So you'll get 3-bet when behind, and you won't gain anything when ahead.

matt

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
I get it. It's still regular poker.

Razz regularly puts you in situations where your draw is so good, and your opponent's hand so unlikely to re-draw, that if you hit your hand it is a monster. There are somewhat similar situations in 7-stud (say you have a pair of Kings and OESFD while your opponent shows unsuited little cards, but probably has two dead small pair) but they are more rare, and your opponent cannot be certain he is ahead. I wondered if any regular Razz players tried to build bigger pots in those situations, since they come up more often.

I realize this isn't a board lock scenario, (my opponent could conceivably make a hand that beat me even if I made a Six), but if there was some magic form of this game where my opponent could open for 3BB on 6th street, I'd call. What I was wondering was if anybody would intentionally put himself in that position with a raise, expecting to be three-bet.

As it turns out, the answer is no.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just regular poker, it's limit poker. If it were pot limit or something, or spread like a 1-5 stud, then you're right that you have enough equity to call a bet on 6th larger than 1 BB. However, given the fact that he 3-bet you on 5th and then caught another bike card it's safe to assume you're behind here (which is obv to the villain) and just calling to try to suck out is de rigeur.

Speaking of 5th, while Carlos is right that your equity vs. his range is about 45%, your first raise is the right play since you can try to get a read from him as to whether or not he paired his A (by whether he 3-bets, or by timing). Note that even if he did, 99.44% of villains will not fold it given you caught a Q. The cap on 5th isn't really necessary, but not horrible since you can't get r/r.