88 faces flopraise on A high board

[nutlow]

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.4SB, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.2BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.2BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.2BB

villain is unknown. folding is too weak, so my plan was to play it wa/wb. i probably would have folded the river if the board contained 3 (not 4) diamonds

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
villain is unknown. folding is too weak,

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[nutlow]

I don't feel good folding on 2 suited A rag rag boards everytime. he could be semibluffing a draw or be on a complete bluff (at least I'm telling this to myself)
I fold all kinds of hands in those spots and I often have the feeling my opponents realize that and are playing back at me. might just be selective perception. I want to find the spots where I can call down (without an Ace) and thought this might be one of them...

[Oink]

Nutlaw. If you dont want to fold. How can you play it any other way?

[yourface]

I don't think folding here vs an unknown is that bad. unless your image is ridiculously weak the pfr generally gets respect on an A high board. weak players CC a lot of AX hands preflop too.

you have 5:13 effective odds on a call down, but that doesn't take into account villain maybe checking behind weaker hands on the river or drawing out on you. it's a pretty bad reverse implied odds situation.

and this is definately not wa/wb because you're only WA vs 66 and 77

edit:
and as oink said if you refuse to fold then what are you asking?

[nutlow]

it should have been "folding seems too weak to me"

so my questions are:

1. what do you think about calling this down?
2. what do you think about folding the river if it brings a third diamond on the board?

[Absolution]

I fold the flop until I get a better read.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
it should have been "folding seems too weak to me"

so my questions are:

1. what do you think about calling this down?
2. what do you think about folding the river if it brings a third diamond on the board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown I think his range, in order of likelihood, is:

Weak aces
Diamond Draws, probably with 1 overcard on average
Other pairs
Straight draws
Pairs

I think the first 2 are the majority of his range and even if he has a diamond draw with 1 overcard, you're only about 50/50. That's why I'm fine with folding here and waiting until I see him do something overaggressive before I start calling down. It actually doesn't make sense for him to raise any A he has right here, but I don't give credit to people for knowing that.

[sharpie]

[ QUOTE ]

villain is unknown. folding is too weak, so my plan was to play it wa/wb.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this wa/wb? If you're ahead villain usually has up to 15 outs.

I'd fold the flop without a read.

[Utah]

I think the flop is a very easy fold. The button cold calls 4-handed. So, we can assume he sucks (or has AA/KK). The type of hands this type of player will do this with is usually Ax, a small to mid pair, or 2 paint.

Now, there are 3 players in, an A on the board, and the preflop raiser fires. Why are we going to assume this player, who was passive preflop, is now going to make a bluff / semi-bluff / freecard play against a player who has shown aggression twice and with a player still to act? And, even if he is making a play with a draw or even in the very unlikely event he is bluffing with a hand like J,10 he still has lots of outs.

I can't see any reason here to play a weak hand out of position against an unknown who raises a player who has twice shown aggression, especially when that A has a high chance of hitting his hand.

Also, if we knew the button was ultra aggressive and capable of making a play, I would likely fire the turn if a blank hit.