400nl- Draw Multiway 3bet pot

T0ne D0wn · #1 09-25-2007, 04:06 AM

SB seems like a decent player. New to table, and seems like he is a regular given his stack size, and his name seems familiar.

MP is a standard short stack fish who has been dwindling around 10bb's for the last 20 hands.

No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed)

CO ($618.60)
Button ($200)
SB ($549.40)
BB ($218.05)
Hero ($1042.70)
MP ($36)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $14, MP raises to $36 (All-In), 2 folds, SB calls $34, 1 fold, Hero calls $22.

Flop: ($112) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets $70, Hero raises to $1006.7 (All-In), $450 more to him...

Again SB's range preflop to be like JJ+, AK+ with a few other hands you could possibly throw in there. On the flop his range is like JJ+.

Would you rather call flop or is it a raise? More I think about it actually, the more I think raising the flop is mandatory, but I will post it anyway. Also obviously made a loose raise preflop but try to ignore it, I already know its bad.

wdead · #2 09-25-2007, 04:18 AM

I would make a smaller raise on the flop to make it look like you actually have a set. Or call flop and reeval turn. Shove screams big draw which means overpair calls

snakekilla88 · #3 09-25-2007, 04:34 AM

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I would make a smaller raise on the flop to make it look like you actually have a set. Or call flop and reeval turn. Shove screams big draw which means overpair calls

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I think the flop raise is good. Whether or not you balance raising normal vs. shoving here is important.

ttgirl · #4 09-25-2007, 04:35 AM

no offense, because im sure you think you played this hand well, but you didnt.
1) dont raise garage preflop when you are oop and a shortstack can shove on top of your open. this is called incinerating money

2) dont call preflop when it gets back to you. the reverse implied odds of your hand are fairly high and theres really no reason to call if you put sb on JJ+, AK, since last i checked, k8s doesnt fare especially well against this range. you also dont really have a ton of implied odds due to protected pot / dry sidepot

3) flop is horrible. since im sure you dont bother to balance your game, this line is going to scream draw. in fact, who would ever take this line with anything other than a draw? due to this overbet shove, SB is not going to fold any part of his range which now consists of JJ+ according to you. this is expert. we've now decided to flip a coin for 400 with a bit of an overlay, for no reason.

Realistically, why?

wdead · #5 09-25-2007, 04:37 AM

ttgirl is spot on.
preflop is pretty bad

chisness · #6 09-25-2007, 04:37 AM

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I would make a smaller raise on the flop to make it look like you actually have a set. Or call flop and reeval turn. Shove screams big draw which means overpair calls

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If you call the flop and reevaluate the turn you are not guarenteed to get action on a king/spade and will most likely face a turn bet. So I think calling the flop would be bad here.
Okay to adress your 2nd point, I doubt someone folds to a small raise on the flop but calls a large overbet push on the flop. Equity vs his range when called on the flop is pretty good. It is bad when you make a small raise and he flat calls flop, you lose value by getting the rest of stack in on the turn with only 1 card to come, ehh?

wdead · #7 09-25-2007, 04:38 AM

also if you make a smallish raise on flop sb might fold an overpair because of the dry side pot. but prob not

T0ne D0wn · #8 09-25-2007, 05:01 AM

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3) flop is horrible. since im sure you dont bother to balance your game, this line is going to scream draw. in fact, who would ever take this line with anything other than a draw? due to this overbet shove, SB is not going to fold any part of his range which now consists of JJ+ according to you. this is expert. we've now decided to flip a coin for 400 with a bit of an overlay, for no reason.

Realistically, why?

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Exaggerating? How can the flop be “horrible”? I think raising > calling. Especially since I am not guaranteed to get paid off if I hit 2 pair/flush and will face future bets on other streets.

ttgirl · #9 09-25-2007, 05:03 AM

also, and this is a huge mistake and probably a fundamental leak in your game and most of 2p2 as well as a 2 part mistake.

1) overestimating fold equity. You have none. don't shove draws with no fold equity. Why? Because its [censored] retarded. people are also underestimating how strong sb's line is. sb cold calls mp's rr and knows utg can easily iso shove when it gets back to him. for him to flat with less than QQ is pretty laughable if hes solid. probably not ak either.

2) changing opponents range. this ties back into point 1. if you know he has an overpair and you overbet shove on a drawy board when youre a slight dog against his calling range, you should probably take a timeout to assess his range. you just shove hoping hes weak while in your reads you admit he probably has a top 3 hand about 99.8% of the time. This is [censored] stupid.

sorry for coming off pissy im up late writing an essay and i see this same [censored] in every post. people taking lines that only work when villain can have a weak / air type hand, which is never the case with the lines posted. Good luck sir.

T0ne D0wn · #10 09-25-2007, 05:08 AM

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1) overestimating fold equity. You have none. don't shove draws with no fold equity. Why? Because its [censored] retarded. people are also underestimating how strong sb's line is. sb cold calls mp's rr and knows utg can easily iso shove when it gets back to him. for him to flat with less than QQ is pretty laughable if hes solid. probably not ak either.

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His hand IMO is strongly wieghted towards JJ/QQ. KK/AA usually will 4bet preflop, yet they are still possible. A lot of people will consider folding JJ here, and sometimes even QQ, so to say I have no FE is absurd.

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in fact, who would ever take this line with anything other than a draw?

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I have made overbet shoves on drawy boards with a set/two pair here before. I probably use the overbet shove more then most, so this is kinda flawed logic to rule out having anything other then a draw.

Okay so we agreed preflop is bad, and I will not dispute that. But on the flop I might have given you the wrong impression if you think that his top 3 most likely hands are- QQ/KK/AA.

Also since you hate raising the flop, lets say the two hands that his range is more wieghted towards is JJ/QQ. Do you think that I am always getting paid off when I hit a King?/8?/Spade? if I were to just call the flop. I doubt it, I have pretty good equity against those hands, and theres slight overlay + fold equity.

-Like can some1 else (besides ttgirl) explain why calling the flop is so superior to raising?
-Why is raising "horrible"?