$22+2 mtt omaha/8 hand

[bonsaltron]

My friend and I had a heated debate whether or not these hands were profitable plays of not. Opinions please???

HAND 1: To steal or not to steal, that is the question...

$20+2 MTT Omaha/8: Blinds t150-t300 (ante t25) 9 players

4 folds

Hero: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Raise/Steal or fold? It's hasn't been too loose nor too tight a table thus far. Hero has a normal, tight/aggressive image.

Hand 2: Not so much how Hero plays, but how well does or poorly does Villain play???

$10+1 MTT Omaha/8

Blinds: t50-t100 (no antes)

4 folds

Villain raises to 200

Villain has A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

1 fold

Player A calls

Player A holds A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

2 folds

Hero/BB calls

(t650) FLOP:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero/BB checks
Villain checks
Player A bets
Hero/BB folds
Villain calls

2 players

2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villain checks
Player A bets
Villain calls

5th street: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villain checks
Player A bets
Villain calls


Any comments or discussion on these hands, though elementary, would be deeply appreciated. Thank you.

- Gpro

[sfgiants]

I think posting stack sizes would go a long way in getting some good responses.

[bonsaltron]

wow I'm an idiot...

both times stack sizes are plenty deep for all examined players... like an M of 25+ for each... sorry again...

[JoeDimaggio]

In Hand 1 if the remaining players or particularly the blinds were passive or tight players, I would say the blinds are big enough to raise where they are worth stealing, especially if you have a semi-solid image. Your hand is definitely not a monster but it has some texture to it to make it valuable. If the remaining players were loose/aggressive however I would toss it in a minute and wait for a better spot.

[Buzz]

Hand #1:
bonsaltron - What does "an M of 25+" mean? (I'm guessing a median size of >25*120T, but need to know the individual stack sizes of CO, Button, SB, and BB to have a better idea of how to proceed). Also need to know your own stack size and how far into the tournament you are. Also need to know how tenacious the blinds are and how eager to play the two players behind you are. If you are raising here, it is because you have a very good chance of successfully stealing.

But even given that info it's not an easy decision.

I do agree, given your cards and position, that you either should raise or fold.

I like the starting hand a whole lot better if you change the eight to a four and change the jack to a king, or even a queen. I also like it better without the extra club.

As it is, the hand is too middle-ish.

Thus unless you're at a stage of the tournament where you need to make a move soon or get blinded off, I'd be inclined to wait for a better chance.

Hand #2:
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Not so much how Hero plays, but how well does or poorly does Villain play???

[/ QUOTE ]It's hard to look at hands in isolation. And Villain could be mixing up his play.

However, Villain seems to play poorly here, in my humble opinion. I don't like the pre-flop raise with this hand. And then I don't like the flop check. And then I think Villain should fold to the turn bet.

Hard to comment on the river. Villain should not have gotten this far. Might as well call at this point, I suppose.

(No way to know how Hero plays, since you didn't specify his cards).

Buzz

[bonsaltron]

Once again I apologize for the vagueness of the post. The stack sizes of the players in both examples were quite abundant in relation to the blinds, thus nobody was near desperate in either situation. Hand 1 isn't dieing to steal the blinds, but they're big enough where they're worth stealing in general. My friend and I had an arguement whether the hand, after 4 folds in a 9-handed game, has +EV for a steal attempt. The blinds, as well as everyone else behind us, seemed tight/aggressive and perfectly capable of folding as well as coming over the top of us. That's the best I can specify.

As for Hand 2, where the stack sizes of the 3 were also quite abundant to the blinds/antes, I didn't add my (Hero's) hand because I forgot it and was more interested in Player A & Villain's play (idk why I didn't put Player A and Player B). It appeared when he flopped the nut low, Villain wanted to see a turn card that was a 9+ / non-sapde, before jamming the pot. I think we can agree the pf raise was marginal, but this post-flop/turn strategy was debated by my friend and I.
If he peels one off and a Jh comes, he can make a big bet on the turn, while hopefully having it go check-check on the flop, thus shaving the pot odds for his opponent to call, rather than inlfating the pot on the flop and offering opponent bloated odds on 4th and 5th street. We debated whether it was a sound concept given the awkward position put in play with the pf raise.
Once again I was sloppy when writing the post, something I loathe to do, so thanks for reading the post and my 2 paragraph-follow up cleaners. Next time I'll be thoroughly clear from the getgo.
Any comments and feedback deeply appreciated.

- Gpro

[Borys313]

When it comes to limit tournaments i will follow a simple rule of thumb when it comes to borderline hands.

If my stack is nicely above average (even better if its the biggest from all people yet to act) I go ahead and raise. When I am in the middle of the pack I will fold probably.

O and never raise anything but absolute premiums during the first 3 levels.

[JoeDimaggio]

Yeah the other part I meant to include was if you're either short stacked or deep stacked, that would be about the only time to make that play. If I were around average its almost always a fold.